Richard PRYNCE Esq of Whitehall

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Nicole
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Hi All,

I am an Australian decendant of Richard Prynce (Prince).  I am trying to fill in some gaps that I have.  Can anyone help me with what happened to two of his younger sons?

I have John Prince marrying Mary Younge on 25 May 1621 at St Chad's then I cannot find them again. 

Also his younger brother William born 24 Aug 1595.  I haven't found anything on him either.

Also can the members help me with a book - is their an online version of H.E. Forrest, ‘Wills of the Prynce Family’, T.S.A.S. 4th ser. viii. (1920-1)?

Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

Kind regards,

Nicole

Martyn Freeth
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Hello. I assume that the Richard Prince to whom you refer is he whose second wife was Dorothy Leighton, of Plaish. (No issue by first wife). I have a table for this family but it lacks many ceremonies, and indeed nothing on the John and William whom you mention.

I have put this down to the loss of registers about 1599 - 1660 of Holy Cross (the Abbey) in which White Hall (alias the Stone House) lied. John and / or William may of course have moved out of the county (and few counties have the same extent of early coverage in the IGI).

As regards that article by H E Forrest (which is new to me; thanks) there remain, I believe, some backnumbers of the Transactions. Shropshire Archives could put you in touch; but they could also quote you for photopocopying the whole article (so long as there is not a problem with the spine of the book).

e-mail: archives@shropshire.gov.uk

I would be interested to know where (ie via which marriage out) you branch off.

Martyn Freeth
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PS. Did you know that the late Diana, Princess of Wales descended from this family? Via Jones of Berwick, Drury and Wake.

Nicole
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Joined: Wednesday, 9-05-2012

Hi Martyn,

Firstly I am still a "Prince".

No I did not know that Princess Diana was also a decendant! Now I know why there are so many Drury, Berwick's and Wake's connecting with my tree on ancestory!

Yes I am Refering to the Richard Prynce that married Dorothy Leighton.  John was born in 1590 and William in 1595.

I believe that I am a direct decendant of William (purley at the moment as I am running out of aires that carried the name and we have Williams in every generation) - I am missing the one generation that links up.  My Great Great Grandfather Lt Col Robert Prince OBE had Richard Prynce's coat of arms on everything he did and he even had a piece of furniture from Whitehall (which my dad's cousin in England has).  He always said that the coat of arms was handed to him from his father as it had been to him.  I have notes on my family tree that were hand written by Roberts Great Aunt and in the notes she states that we are decendants of Richard Prynce of Whitehall. I have found the orginial description of Richard's coat of arms that he was given and it matched the one that Robert gave my grandfather.

I have got back to William Prince of Braford, Yorkshire (no dates) father of Thomas Prince b 1724 Surgeon.  I have verified all of the dates in the notes from Great Aunt Marys writings. So her memory for what she was told was outstanding!

Happy to help fill in any of your tables that you need help on.

Kind regards,

Nicole

Martyn Freeth
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I can see why you wish to see the article on Prince / Prynce Wills. Without some such clear reference I see little hope of establishing a link. For a start, the pedigree in the Heralds' Visitation of Shropshire 1623 (Harleian Society's edition based on secondary sources) shows both John and William as then without issue.

I do not know when the missing registers of Holy Cross went missing or were destroyed - possibly Civil War period; but many other registers that are now lost were seen by Victorian genealogists such as the (independently working) brothers George and Joseph Morris, of Shrewsbury. George happily left in his mss extracts then taken for the purpses of his work. These are kept in a separate box near the transcripts of registers at Shropshire Archives.

Do you have photocopies of their pedigrees for this family from their mss on film at Shropshire Archives? If Revd W G D Fletcher covered the family in his less extensive but thorough work, this also would be worth having.

But, for what it's worth, I feel that a jump from Shropshire to Yorkshire is far fetched. Some compelling reason, such as marriage or preferment to some lucrative employment should be sought; and frankly, as the IGI shows, there were enough home-grown Princes in that county.

As regards the heraldry used by your line at least in more recent times, has anyone investigated whether a right to use them was blessed by the College of Arms?

Sadly, it is far from unknown for families who were on the social rise to latch on to arms that had historically been used by a family of the same name; and thereafter for an appropriate legend to arise.

One story might assist here, as it involves both Shropshire and Yorkshire. The eminent Victorian painter Sir Frederic Leighton (later, and for one day only, a peer), whose grandfather had been physician the the Russian Royal family, came from a Yorkshire line. He fondly thought that their origins were in the ancient Leightons of Shropshire. He was, quite apart, a close friend in London of Sir Baldwyn Leighton, 8th Bt, of Loton, Salop; and when Fred needed to obtain arms to go with his new baronetcy he asked Sir B if he might concur in his taking a variant of Sir B's arms, which was done; and for his peerage title he chose Baron Leighton of Stretton.

However, there is in fact no reason to think that Sir Fred had any descent from the Shropshire line.

With problems such as the present it is prudent to look for disproof as much as proof.

And, by the way, have you looked for Yorkshire Wills?

As regards Shropshire Wills you can see the indices of those proved centrally in the PCC by searching (both spellings) at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline ; and, for a more limited period (at present while the facility develops) for those proved at Lichfield 1650-1730 by a Google or other, exact words search against [ staffordshire names indexes ] . There is a full manuscript index for the diocese on films at Shropshire Archives.

From the PCC it would seem that Richard Prince was dead by 1599 or 1612 and thus before any likely marriages of his younger sons or birth of any issue to them.

Please look in again in case I turn up anything further.

Martyn Freeth
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Shropshire Archives were this afternoon quoting you the cost of copy / post of the article on Prynce Wills. I already had the volume out. It deals mrely with those of Philip of 1690 and of his widow Elizabeth (nee Bank(e)s). Neither will directly assist you. Philip was nephew of "your" William and John. Elizabeth names a remarkable number of close kin on her own and her late husband's sides. Neither contain any reference to, or to any issue, of such William and John.

They had been abstracted from PCC records (Act Books) in London by Revd W G D Fletcher.

Now, volume 5 of his collection (microfilm 42) has almost everything relevant to Prince: all available extracts from Holy Cross registers, lists of Wills at Lichfield and PCC, other stuff (but not MIs; and not a constructed pedigree).

He includes (pages 44-45) his abstract of the Will dated 29.11.1637 proved 1637 at Lichfield, of Dorothy Prince. [ I.e Dorothy nee Leighton ] . To be sure, and not reliant on WGDF or self, buy from Lichfield Record Office [ Google search ] .

She refers to: her son Sir Richard; daughter [ Elizabeth ] Jones; daughter Isabel; daughter-in-law Lady Prince; sister Parrye [ ie Mary Leighton, wife of John Parry, of Poston, Herefs ] ; god daughter Elizabeth Prince; grandson William Jones; grandson William Prince [ presumably he son of Sir Richard and elder brother of Philip ] ; god daughter Dorothie Longe [ presumably Dorothy, daughter of Isaac Jones, wife of Edward Long, of Rood Ashton, Wilts ] ; granddaughter Anne Prince [ who she? ] ; Mr Edward Jones; poor of Holy Cross.

The list of beneficiaries does not seem to be exhaustive of the testatrix Dorothy's issue living in 1637. (There were more Jones; Walter Prince killed in Civil War; and Grey grandchild(ren) of the Enville family). But the absence of mention of sons John and William has to be disturbing to your family's theory or claim.

Revd WGDF goes on to abstract some Wills proved at Exeter for Prince of Kingham or elsewhere in Devon. Reason for this juxtaposition not explored by me. But I did note that the earliest date indicated a likely origin quite separate from the Shrewsbury family.

Photocopies from these microfilms cost [ or used to cost when done by Archives' staff £1-00 per page. Revd Fletcher's pages devoted to Prince in his vol 5 start at about 36 and go on into the late 50's if not further. Would be expensive.

More thought perhaps anon. Not long back.

Martyn Freeth
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Some more. The article in Shrops Arch Soc Transactions about the two Prynce Wills was supplemental to a main article by H E Forrest in his series on "Old Shropshire Houses and their Owners", this one being on Abcott Manor, Clungunford. It starts with Francis Morris whose daughter and coheir Beatrice married (before 1656) Wrottesley Prynce; and goes on to deal with the line down from that couple. One or two Wills are, I think, quoted, but, as with the supplemental ones, would be too late to throw light on your problem.

Next, I went through the box of George Morris' early register extracts (as mentioned earlier). Nothing for Holy Cross.

About 18 months ago when I began pottering with this family I took some note of MIs recorded (in the SFHS series - see "Online Resources" above) for Holy Cross. I would not say that this was exhaustive, as interest was in the main thrust, and it may be worth checking again for anything for John and William, the sons of Richard and Dorothy. But the list is almost exclusively for memorials inside the Abbey.

I have spent much time this morning looking for dates of death or burial for collaterals who might just have left Wills referring to early Prince / Prynce kin. Not complete. In paricular am thinking of the Isaac Jones family (but no Wills yet seen). He became a fairly rich merchant in London. Also Revd (in fact, Dr) Daniel Price / Pryce. I see his burial in 1631 at Worthen, Salop, where he was Rector, but not so far that of his wife Isabel. Of course, if she survived him she may have been buried "at home" at Holy Cross - with missing registers for the most likely period.

A question. You refer to Thomas Prince, surgeon, "b" 1724 at "Braford", son of a William. I took this to mean Bradford, Yorks.. Correct? If so do not see anything to match in IGI, thus, query, your source.

If by chance the reference is to Bradford, Wilts (then one of the centres of the wool trade as was Shrewsbury), that is a different matter, and it would bring things close to the territory of the extensive family of Long - whose connection via Jones was "in place" by 1637. Such a territorial move away from home by "your" William I would not call far-fetched.

Nicole
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Hi Martyn,

Thanks for all of the information.  I have got a big piece of paper and am drawing it out (having trouble following it on the small screen).  In answer to your questions - I haven't come across an Anne Prince granddaughter of Dorothy (nee Leighton) Prynce yet.  Will have to dig some more.  Also I have the notes from my Great x 4 Aunt (Who was Thomas' great granddaughter).  She has Thomas "b" 1724, but not where.  She has his father as William (Bradford, Yorks).  Thomas was a surgeon in Cambridgeshire, but she has his son William listed as Bolterdale, Yorks, who married (1) Mildred Cleever and (2) ... Leeson.  I have found both of these marriages (1) in Newark Upon Trent, Nottingham and (2) Little Ponton, Lincolnshire.  I have no idea what his occupation was to be moving so much.

I will search for some information and get back to you.

Let me know if at any point you want to take this discussion "offline" via email.

Kind regards,

Nicole

Martyn Freeth
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Thank you. Michael Hulme has kindly sent e-address to you. I may later this week look into a couple of further things at Archives, and if done, post here.

Testatrix Dorothy's granddaughter Anne Prince might have been daughter of John, who is known to have married before Dorothy's death; and if so, perhaps baptised at HX during lost period.

The absence of reference to John or William still, I feel, urges, though not conclusively, that they had died before their mother. It was customary to leave a token shilling to children (or children of deceased children) who would otherwise be "cut off", so as to avoid challenge to the Will on grounds of unsound memory. Also occasionally, when a child has left home there might be a provision such as "£5 to my son Obnoxius if he come to this [ part of the ] country to receive the same".

About that item of furniture owned by Col Prince: was it Jacobean? Or might it have been bought by him or at an earlier, but not original generation?

More no doubt anon.

Martyn Freeth
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Nicole and I are continuing aspects of this "case" off-board; but if of general interest, I saw yesterday that George Morris has good detail in his pedigree in volume 5 of his collection, starting at page 481. He has nothing on William apart from his baptism in 1595.

As regards the latter's brother John (bap 1590) he quotes his marriage (which is in IGI and printed registers) in 1621 at St Chad's to Mary Younge (correctly Yonge). And his MI at the Abbey (which I now find that I had at home all along). It is not among those listed by the noted historian Revd John Brickdale Blakeway as at 1823, but in 1663 by the herald Sir William Dugdale. It then read: "This monument was set in memoriall of John Prince late of Lincolnes Inne Esqr at the cost of Mary his wife eldest daughter of William Younge of Keinton in the County of Salop Esqr Anno Dne 1623 Jan 4 ".

Dugdale recorded only MIs that had heraldic display.

Yet to be considered is whether John left a Will proved at Lichfield (nothing in PCC) or whether administration was granted in either jurisdiction.

RebeccaWilce
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Joined: Thursday, 28-06-2012

Hi there,

I have been trying to find out more about the Prynce family as my fourth great grandmother was a Martha Prince 1771 -1847 from Moreton Corbett. Family archives written by the great grandson of Martha suggest a connection to Richard Prynce and Whitehall in Abbey Foregate but I have been unable to find a link due to the lack of information.

I believe Martha was sister to William Prince (1766-1826) as I found a record of a will in which he leaves everything to her when he dies. I have found from the parish records that show William being baptised on 1st Jan 1766, the son of a Richard and Mary Prince (poss nee Astley) of the One-house, Moreton Corbet.

I have a copy of a cutting from the 'Shropshire Notes and Queries' dated May 18 1900 that mentions the baptism of William and asks if there is a connection between the Richard Prince of One-House and that of the Richard Prynce of Whitehall.

The family archivist, Nelson Harries, writing in 1918 also says he has in his possession some military epaulettes formerly belonging to a Captian Charles Prince of the Shropshire Regiment; brother to Martha Prince. He says he also has Captain Charles' portrait silhouette taken at Plymouth in 1812. 

If anyone has information that can help to identify the ancestry of Richard Prince (d 1808) of the One-house, Moreton Corbet or add anything I would love to hear from you.

 

Rebecca

 

RickPrince
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Hello all,

I'm hoping this thread has not died completely as it would appear it's not been commented on for a couple of years. 

Anyway I believe I am also I direct descendant of my namesake Sir Richard Prince (Prynce) and he would be my 11x great grandfather. My family line continues via William b1619 and then his son William b1644 then to Samuel b1670 etc.. 

My dad was William Henry Prince born in Hartlepool 1939 and his farther was also William Henry born in Egremont 1900. The name William was a family tradition but my mum was having none of it and named me Richard. My Dads Brother researched the family tree around 2005 and it was then I first learned of the family history in Shrewsbury. Over the years was intreagued to find out more about Sir Richard and as to the reasons for his knighthood. For years the information available online was limited to some old texts relating to the hospital of St Giles and didn't really shed much light on anything. However I looked again recently and more information is coming online and the discover Shropshire website has some great information now. It would appear Sir Richards farther (also Richard) was also an interesting Character. I found this thread and thought the link may prove to be interesting.

http://www.discovershropshire.org.uk/html/search/verb/GetRecord/theme:20...

I'd love to hear more about the Prince family and indeed share more about my line if anyone is interestead.

Richard Prince (not the sir one)