Gwendoline MORRIS

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kenripper
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Can you help me find Gwendoline Colleen MORRIS?

Because this is a convoluted story with interesting pieces of evidence I have posted details of the mystery in this document . .. www.kenripper.btinternet.co.uk/GwenMorris.pdf .

Gwendoline MORRIS married in Birmingham in 1925, she had two children there, divorced there and remarried in Leicester in 1933. This period lasts just 7 years and 5 months. That’s it. Her life before her first marriage and after her second marriage is an enigma. Where did she come from? What happened to her?  Can you help me to find out more about Gwendoline?

Gwendoline’s daughter, Jean, is approaching her 85th birthday in 2012 and she hasn’t seen her mother since about 1932. Jean is a lovely lady who has had a wonderful life with one aching chasm. Who was her mother and what happened to her? In Jean’s words, “To find out about my mother would make my life.”

Can you add to Gwendoline’s story?

SFHS WebMaster (not verified)

Hi Ken, just a quick warning that no-one should post details of living person on this web-site without there permission, it is probably best to arrange ot make contact direclty with the respondant.
 

Graham Williams (WebMaster) who's heart raced when he saw the name in the Subject Field, but then the middle name blew that linkage, plus the dates. frown

GrahamOfSalop
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Hi Ken, I have changed hats now.
I looked through your very interesting research and realised that, if your George CLARKE was born about 6th April 1861 at Whitemere (from being aged 1 day on 1861 Census), then I am descended from his Grandparents John CLARKE & Martha (nee LEEKE) through their daughter Mary Ann, who married John DAVIES of Nil Green.
Also in your research you don't appear to mention that Gwendoline is shown with middle name of Corrine on the birth certificates.

Graham Williams

kenripper
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Thanks for your response Graham. Jean's Ok with her name being out there, but I've kept it as anonymous as possible.

Amazing that you should be descended from the Clarke family. I take it that you can't dispel my theory about Gwendoline Clarke becoming Gwendoline Morris? Whilst I think I've got the answer, it'd be a confirmatory result if you have any life events for G Clarke which coincide with G Morris and another theory would then need to be constructed.

I lived in the same house as a Graham Williams back in the late 1960s, so I had a similar heart race moment. wink

morrisonman
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census search results 1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married
Sex Age Birth
Year
Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

 
PRICE, Samuel Head Married M 35 1876 Coal Miner Hewer Staffordshire Hatherton VIEW  
PRICE, Rose Wife Married
10 years
F 36 1875   Staffordshire Chase Town VIEW  
PRICE, Gwendoline Collin Daughter   F 3 1908     VIEW  
PRICE, Morston Ronald Son   M 1 1910     VIEW  

RG number:
RG14
Piece:
16949
Reference:
RG14PN16949 RG78PN1047 RD368 SD2 ED16 SN205
   
Registration District:
Cannock
Sub District:
Cannock
Enumeration District:
16
Parish:
Cannock
   
Address:
183 Wimblebury Road Heath Hayes Cannock
County:
Staffordshire

 

HTH,

MM

GrahamOfSalop
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Hi Ken, sorry I don't have any more on Gwendoline, in fact I never knew of her until your posting, my knowledge stopped at 2X Great Great Uncle William & Sarah CLARKE having a son called George.

This may be of indirect interest to you, John CLARKE's tithe entry from 1843:-

Tithes
Ind Year Parish Township Ref Page Landowner, Forename Landowner, Surname Occupier, Forename Occupier, Surname Plan No Name & Desc State Quanties Amount of Rents Whom Remarks RIN Relationship
25 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 309 Cross Hill Arable 04.02.04 1s 4d/10s 6d Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
26 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 310 Hays Arable 03.03.16 1s 2d/8s 6d Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
27 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 311 Hays Arable 06.01.21 2s/13s 6d Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
28 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 321 Hays Arable 03.03.03 1s 2d/11s 6d Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
29 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 324 Hays Meadow Meadow 00.02.39 2d/2s 9d Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
30 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 325 Cross Bank Arable 02.01.22 9d/7s Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
31 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 326 Coppice Arable 02.02.00 9d/7s 9d Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
32 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 327 Garden Garden 00.00.26 0        
33 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 328 House, Outbuildings and Yard   00.00.18 1s 6d/0 Vicar Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    
34 1843 Ellesmere Colemere 29-122 31 John William BRIDGWATER (Deceased) John CLARKE 329 Yard Meadow 01.00.05 2d/4s 6d Vicar/Earl of Bridgwater Trustees of Earl of Bridgwater Deceased    

 

kenripper
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Thanks Morrisonman for that. Sadly it seems we can discount her. She was actually Gwendoline Colton PRICE (Colton came from her mother's maiden name) in 1911 and the transcript is a little awry:

It also seems that Gwendoline Price married in 1927 in Cannock

You had me excited there!

morrisonman
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Hello again, Ken Ripper...

Thanks for that, as usual I was too quick off the mark by a half (-:

============

Did some more thinking on this one (the engima is quite catching).  I am tempted by a purely soundex approach:

THEORY :
At her marriage, in 1927, perhaps she THINKS she is called “Gwendoline Colleen-Morris” ?  because she has always understood that to be her name ?
So she was born Gwen* "Corrine" or Colleen" and later acquired a MORRIS epithet through adoption, fostering etc...

Extending the theory, we might include "Collins" ?
Thus, she MIGHT be born pure & simple "Gwendoline COLLINS" ?
And subsequently acquired an additional name for reasons stated (or other reasons)

Testing the theory off FreeBMD gives the following "candidates" :

Births Mar 1901   (>99%)
Collins     Gwendoline Ann           Stourbridge     6c    185

Also another soundex, though perhaps less likely:
Births Sep 1902   (>99%)
Evans     Gwendoline Corris           Forden     11b    174
And particularly this one, which is my preferred hypothesis:
Births Sep 1903   (>99%)
Colley     Gwendoline Mary E           Madeley     6a    641

The last one is "nice" because of the YoB...

However, I admit to having NO IDEA about how she may have acquired a MORRIS name.

I checked her out at 1911 Census, looks like a "normal" family set-up ??

Just a few thoughts !

MM

cockberryhall
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Sorry i hope you do not mind me thinking out load........when my granddad got married he had always thought he was Charles Vaughan but when he went to marry my grandmother and had to show his birth certificate it said Charles Henry Eccleston on it.......that was 1905........so would not Gwendoline had to do the same.......so was it someone else birth certificate or was it hers...............so did she go by another name until she married..............and then except for marriage etc go back to that name....Debi

kenripper
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The enigma continues; from your list, Morrisonman  ..

Gwendoline Ann Collins doesn't marry or leave Stourbridge

There was a Gwendoline Corris M Lacey born 1902q3 in Forden district who married Ernest B Cobham in Liverpool in 1925q3. She died in Liverpool in 1981q3. I can discount her but she's not the Gwendoline Corris Evans also born in Forden district in Montgomeryshire in the same quarter who is on your list, with whom I've made no progress identifying life events for her. She remains 'in the frame' but I feel that it's not very likely given the geographical location and the lack of match with Jean's recollections.

Gwendoline Mary E Colley on your list appears to marry Andrew Finch in 1930q4 in Wolverhampton and dies as Gwendoline Mary E Finch in 1972q1 in West Bromwich aged 68. She's been crossed off the candidates list!

Nice lateral thinking, though.

kenripper
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I'm sure that happened, Debi. I'm not so sure that it was consistent across all marriages. I can imagine the number of people alive and marrying before WW1 who would not have been able to read their own birth certificate, let alone value it enough to keep it safe. There's also the number who were never registered before penalties for not registering were introduced.

I'll bear it in mind, because it may well be the solution, but I'm not sure how I start to prove it without some input from a family member.

kenripper
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Jean tells me that one of her aunts once suggested that Gwendoline "was brought up by an auntie in Much Wenlock and when she died she left her quite a lot of money; she bought a motorbike; the beginning of her downfall?"

I've looked at online probate listings but haven't come up with anything obvious. I wonder if there are school log books for schools in Much Wenlock which might reveal an address or other information for a Gwendoline around the time of WW1? This might help find the aunt, possibly on an electoral roll?

Any idea if these are accessible online? I'm in Hertfordshire and Jean is in the depths of the west country.

morrisonman
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Hi again, Ken Ripper (-:

Looking for the 4th time at your PDF, it looks indeed very well researched !

No qualms about Gwen's origins as Alice Gwendoline CLARKE,: this part of the story seems very plausible.

Turning to the "other end" of her life, perhaps after her 2nd husband's d in 1941, she remarried as Gwendolie Turner" ?

There is a "likely" marriage for her here :

Marriages Mar 1941   (>99%)
CROWLE     William A     Turner     Tiverton     5b    1193      Scan available - click to view
Turner     Gwendoline C M     Crowle     Tiverton     5b    1193      Scan available - click to view

I agree that this is "early" in relation to her husband's death, but it was wartime, and perhaps he was reported as missing in action" etc. or perhaps she simpy just remarried and nobody checked the  records ?

Other lines of research would be GRO death records for "Gwendoline Turner" post 1941...

MM

kenripper
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Hi MM

We've had a look at this general scenario  acouple of times and came up with nothing worthwhile. As you say, the Crowle/Turner marriage looked interesting until I saw her death which indicated she was born about 1919.

Ken

cockberryhall
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sorry thiniking out load again.....if Gwendoline was a brother or sister child (the sister giving her morris as she was not married) she could have been Gwendoline morris living in 40 willows rd Balsall Heath Birmingham in 1911 with a aunt but it says she was born in 1901 but we all know that those dates can be way out..........i keep thinking why go to Birmingham and not to liverpool  so could it be she lived there at sometime or had a relation there or just followed a young man there maybe the police officer......

Sorry another thought did she have a relation either brother or sister working on a near by farm and went to stay or work there and knowing the morris at the other farm took his name to be her father etc.....found a morris working at Walford Bachurch in  1911 at a farm......

my father was born in 1923 and he went to work on another farm when he was 12 years old....he was the youngest of 6 and all of them were sent away to work......the oldest being 14 years older than my father....

Debi

cockberryhall
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Hello again..............My husband said even though there was no driving test, they had to have a driver's licence for a motorbike etc, as my husband has his grandfather's one for a motorbike......not sure if they have records of this......Did the parish she lived in keep school records....the parish we live in has some school records at the local archives office............I suppose that no one that grew up in the area she lived in, is still there etc......The village where my parents were born and grew up in the is still a friend who is 10 yrs younger than my parents ... my uncle lives next door to him and they have been friends since they were little so he knows everything about everyone etc.....he even told me the other week that the is a picture of a funeral which has my great grandmother in if he can find the person again who show it to him.............Debi

morrisonman
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Hi,  Ken Ripper,

Encouraged by the above idea-stream from cockberryhall, did anybody think of trying to contact the family of her late husband, Mr TURNER in Leicestershire ?

A lot of water does flow under bridges, but time is (also) supposed to HEAL ?

Just an idea (I know it is very easy to propose, but far harder to actually DO...) (-:

MM

kenripper
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Hi MM

Yes. We've looked into the Turner family and found the only surviving relatives with a chance of a memory living on Tyneside but alas, there's no recollections of Gwendoline there either.sad

I too have been encouraged by the thoughts of cockberryhall. The 1911 census reference shows me a Gwendoline Morris living with Emma Cooper, who when traced to Hingeston Road in Birmingham in 1901 is living next door to a family named Morris. I'm presently puzzling over whether Gwendoline was part of the next door family or whether she was in 1901 aged 7 months and living with her family in Feckenham. The one in Feckenham appears to be a Gwendoline Ethel Morris.indecision

This certainly keeps the grey cells going! I am really grateful for all the input from cockberryhall, yourself and all the very helpful SFHS members. It's like researching in Cornwall. So many helpful folk with a genealogy gene.smiley

morrisonman
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Hello Again, Ken !

At 1911:
Emma cooper is widowed
Her sister (single) = Ada Trout
Therefore Emma Cooper was probably born Emma Trout.
Found births for these two on FreeBMD = OK
However, no marriage on FreeBMD (yet...) for Emma Trout and a COOPER.
Mary Ann Cooper (single) born Wolverhampton 1858 = OK per FreeBMD
Perhaps COOPER was a common union, or a second marriage ?
What I am thinking is that perhaps GWEN was the dtr of one of these “1911 ladies” who are ALL of the right child-beairng age) and
For good measure, the MORRIS you mention at 1901 ?

However, if above is right, then I have no idea how the Baschurch Farm memories would fit into the story...

MM

kenripper
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Hi cockberryhall

I've established that Gwendoline Morris living at 40 Willows Rd, Balsall Heath, Birmingham in 1911 with her aunt, Emma Cooper is not the Gwendoline Morris who is the mother of Jean Reynolds, nee Weaver.

This Gwendoline Ethel Morris was born 1 Aug 1900 (from her death registration) to John Morris who married Mary Ann Trou[gh]t in 1884. Both John and Mary Ann died between the 1901 census when the family are living in Feckenham and the 1911 census when Gwendoline was living with her mother's sisters Emma Cooper nee Trou[gh]t and Ada Trout in Birmingham. Gwendoline went on to marry in 1925 to Reginald Wamlsey. Gwendoline visited Canada and returned in 1958. She died in 1982 in Birmingham as Gwendoline Ethel Wamsley, aged 82.

I can confirm that she's not 'our girl'!

cockberryhall
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Hello ken

Its me again........found a Gwendoline C Turner getting married in 1945 to a Rabbage.....never heard of a surname like that....in freeBMD......in Birmingham...cannot find it on the other sites......you keep my brain cells working aswell as its nice to be able to think about someone else family for a change as mind can sometimes drive me mad when i can't find the information i'm know should be on the sites i use......like address search on findmypast the one i am always want is always missing that year.....hope you find her soon..........on address search of whole areas i have found relations which are not on the census for that year......Debi

morrisonman
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er... scuse me for butting in, Cockberryhall (-:

I tried checking that out, but only found this:

Rabbage Gwendoline C Turner Birmingham 6d

???

In fact there's a b. for her on FreeBMD, in 3q1917:

(>99%)


Rabbage Gwendoline C Dale Kings N 6d172 

appologies if I  am spoofing your theory !

mm

cockberryhall
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Thats alright ....i should not try to search when the grand children are running around....doing it now......and our special needs grand daughter keeps taking my attention........Debi

cockberryhall
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The only things i can think i would do if you have not done them is did she have a child by Herbert the seems a lot of turner/morris children born between then.......did they stay in Leicestershire or did his work take him somewhere else..Herbert might hold the answer...it would seem she might have left him before war broke out or she joined one of the forces and went to another part of the country or even back to Birmingham...did she die in the bombing...i wonder were the Clarke family was then.........what we all need is the 1922 census.....but even when that comes out my father will not be on it and i want to live long enough to see him and my mum on the census.....hes been dead 32 years this year ......of course alot of people disappear in the war years .....i had some good luck last night after weeks searching address list i found a relation i was looking for.....as my husband says they would only check 10% of the records whoever was putting them on the computer so alot of mistakes would never be picked up.....................wish you luck with finding Gwendoline....take care..Debi

cockberryhall
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Hello again

computer having a turn this morning..

a thought...did herbert have to put down if he was married,widower etc when he joined up and also next of kin

was gwen ever in trouble with the police from 1933

if one went to work how did you pay your taxes then

Debi

cockberryhall
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Hello Ken

Been rereading your notes......E Morris could have been Edwin son.....he only had one son so went its said the 2 brother-in-laws  were did the other one come from.....if more than one it could be the Clarkes or ???...also its a long way to drive cattle.. don't think you could do it in a day as cows would keep on stopping to eat and mucking around like they do..................is the any of the Clarke family left for you to talk to.....

Debi

cockberryhall
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Hi .

Mary Clarke maiden name was woodhall............they seem to be farmers....Robert woodhall 1824 Hill Top Ellesmere in 1891 census.....not able to find them early on so i could not see a daughter or brother went to Birmingham as that name seems common in that area...........Frederick woodhall  farmer hammer mill hammer whitchurch born 1883.................also found cooke john and martha farmers penley ellesmere who are relations to woodhall...............

Did gwendoline catch a boat as the seems quite a few gwen morris leaving by boat from 1933 onwards...........i know you would have checked all this but i know she was out there somewhere....

Debi

kenripper
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Hi Debi

I'm sorry if it seems that I've been ignoring you. Since I last posted we've travelled down here to Cornwall for a few days. Since arriving we've been without Internet access until now. Hence there's been no chance of reading and responding to your postings.

There had been a suggestion that Gwendoline and Herbert had a son Edwin TURNER, and there was an Edwin A TURNER born in 1935 whose mother was a MORRIS, but in Chesterfield. This is the son of Leonard Donsworth TURNER, son of Edwin TURNER. Leonard married Doris MORRIS (daft name!) in 1931 in Chesterfield. So that line of enquiry has gone cold.

I'm hoping to get sight of Herbert's army service record to see if Herbert can provide some clues but I'm not hopeful.

There's no obvious sighting of Gwendoline's death before, during or after the war. I have a researcher / relative in Canada looking into a potential move by her to that side of the pond. So far, nothing. There was a suggestion in Jean's mind that Gwen may have gone there but we've looked at numerous copies of ship's manifests but so far, nothing.

I've looked in online newspaper reports for her but like most of us, she doesn't turn up. There was a Gwendoline TURNER in Nottingham who was fined for understating her income in order to get free milk, but she's not our gal.

We've wondered who E MORRIS was. Father? Brother? Impostor? Hmmm. I've explored the Clarke and Woodhall lines with no success to date.

Interesting, but frustrating.

cockberryhall
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Hello Ken

You have done very well.....no one could do more......she either change her name or died.....my granny death is not recorded and i am trying to search graveyard list to find her.......did not gwen first husband give the children any clues about their mother  or his sister say anything to them......my mum has told me things about her family which other members of the family did not know......my mum never knew her father as her mum and dad  broke up 6 weeks before she was born and he died when she was 15 without her every getting to meet him.....hope you have some lucky soon.......i want you to find her aswell......its like the last page of a book you are reading is missing.......

Debi

cockberryhall
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Hi Ken

A know this is  a long shot.....Gertrude Morris Aston born 1910...406 Green Lane.....her father was a police officer.......Weaver i know lived at Weobley and his father was a police officer......could Kenneth have meant Gertrude via his job and her father...........could Kenneth dad still lived in weobley and that's were they went  that day.......did Gwen take her daughter there hoping that his parents would help her keep her daughter...............also my daughter in law said was she a orphan that went to work at Baschurch....so that's why she says different things because she never knew her parents............Debi

cockberryhall
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Hello again

we did not see gwen second wedding cert so i might be going off on one again....found 2 Herbert A Turner on census born within 1yr of each other......did the Herbert A Turner who die was he Gwen husband or was he the other one as could not find a Herbert A on death records for 1941 only Herbert.....also noted that on the 1911 census the couples had only been married 4yrs and 6yrs so the was plenty of time for them to have more children which might still have children alive.............found a Gwen Turner birmingham 2001 born 1906 and a Herbert A Turner 1962 age 54 both die in Birmingham....hope all is going well....hope to hear good news soon...Debi