William Rothell OWEN

18 replies [Last post]
f.hancock
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 29-10-2011

 

 

William Rothell OWEN

 

My father, born 1902, and my grandfather both had the above names.

 

Research has shown that Grandfather was rather economical with the truth about his date and place of birth in later census returns. Because of that we have been unable to satisfactorily identify him.

 

In about 1912 a school Admissions register in Cornwall recorded the fact that Father had “gone to Shrewsbury to live”.

 

A recent census ‘trawl’ located a William R OWEN, born about 1864 living with his parents in Chapel Lane, St Chad, Shrewsbury in 1871 and 1881.

 

Can anyone suggest a method of proving that the William R found in Shrewsbury is in fact the William Rothell that we are looking for.

 

The 1891 census revealed that also living in Shrewsbury was the young lady who was destined to become my grandmother. She was Emma Beatrice Turner WATSON, born in Oxfordshire in 1880.

 

Ellen JAMES, mother of Emma Beatrice Turner WATSON, was born at Panteg, Pontypool on 11th July 1850. Her parents were Thomas JAMES and Lavinia nee JONES.

 

We don’t know what happened to Lavinia but by 1861 Thomas was married to Catherine HERN. We can be reasonably sure that we are talking about the same man because Thomas’ age, occupation (bricklayer or brick maker) and birthplace are constant throughout.

 

Ellen’s first marriage was at St Michael, Shrewsbury on 21st March 1872 when she married James BARKER, a 29 year old bachelor, the son of

Elijah BARKER.  The bride’s name is given as Ellen James SANDWELL, a domestic servant aged 23. Her father is Thomas James SANDWELL, bricklayer.

 

On 26th May 1879 at St Mary, Shrewsbury another marriage takes place. The bride is Ellen BARKER, a widow aged 29 and the daughter of Thomas JAMES, bricklayer.  The groom is George WATSON, aged 28 plasterer.

 

Among Ellen’s siblings are Emma and Harriet.

 

In 1876 Emma James SANDWELL married William GITTINS    in the Atcham Registration District.

 

In 1884 Harriet James SANDWELL married John Edward DAVIES in the same district.

 

 

It seems too much of a coincidence for three women (the only three) marrying in the same district, all having the same second Christian name and surname, not to be siblings.

 

Ellen’s second marriage tends to prove that SANDWELL was added but why?

 

 

 

Michael J Hulme
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 41 min ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Hello

In the same way that the School Admission Register in Cornwall recorded that a student had left to move to Shrewsbury, an Admission Register in Shrewsbury (if still surviving) should record the fact that a new student had come from Cornwall.

To start with you will need to try to establish what schools existed in Shrewsbury at that date and then find out if their Admission Registers are still available either at Shropshire Archives in Shrewsbury or possibly at the school.

If you are lucky enough to find the Shrewsbury Admission Register then it should give sufficient information to prove the move for you.

Mike

 

Martyn Freeth
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 44 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Using Family Search I have looked at that entry for WRO in Shrewsbury in 1881 Census. That states his place of birth as Shrewsbury. Did you not notice this?

Then moving to FreeBMD we find the birth of William ROBERT Owen in December quarter 1863 in Shrewsbury District - i.e. fitting with the Census.

Also at that Census he was stated to be an invalid.

f.hancock
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 29-10-2011

Thank you

I was 'testing the water' so to say, to see if any transcripts were available for these records.

f.hancock
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 29-10-2011

Thank you Martyn,

Yes, I noticed all the entries in 1881. In some ways I think that Wm R (possibly the birth regiatered in Atcham R D in the June qr of 1864) is the man I am looking for. However the fact that he was recorded as an invaild in 1881 puts me off a little because it is alleged that he went on to have an army career of which we can find no record. Perhaps he was a stranger to the truth in more ways than one!

Of course the William Robert you mention could also fit the bill.

I shall have to try and get to Shrewsbury to see if I can find a christening for William Rothell OWEN.

Martyn Freeth
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 44 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

I have been into FreeBMD again. William Robert Owen died aged 18 in March quarter 1882 in Atcham District (which in 1871 had absorbed the former Shrewsbury District); so sadly his invalidity in 1881 was serious.

As I see it so far your evidence of an Owen connection with Shrewsbury stems only from that school record in 1912 in Cornwall.

Would you like to tell us more of what you know? Several contributors, such as Mark (Dodd) have ready access to online databases and might be interested in helping, even if the hunting ground is away from Shropshire.

For a start, when and where did your grandfather die and at what age? And do you have his marriage certificate and thereby the name and occupation of his father?

 

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

I have the Shrewsbury School Register from 1798 to 1928.

There is only one William Owen in the 1908-1938 register.

William Henry Kenrick Owen, b 1893, left 1913.

However, this list relied on people returning a mail to the author and only 33% did so.....

 

 

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Looking at the Parish register of St John The Baptist, New Wortley in Leeds, Yorkshire.

William Rothell Owen was born 20th August 1903 and baptised on the 2nd September 1903.

His parents were living at 6 Stead Street and his fathers occupation is Labourer.

His older sister, Beatrice, was born 30th June 1901 and Baptised at St John THe Baptist  on the 16th October 1901.

At that time the parents areliving at 11 Coffley Street the the father's occupation is "Railway Man".

Lets see if we can find them there in 1901...

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Different address and different occupation....

1901 census transcription details for:  24, Renton Terrace, Wortley
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13      Piece: 4210      Folio:  6      Page:  4         
Reg. District: Bramley Sub District: Wortley
Parish: Wortley Enum. District: 16
Ecclesiastical District: Holy Trinity City/Municipal Borough:  
 
Address: 24, Renton Terrace, Wortley
County: Yorkshire (West riding)
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year
Occupation ,
Disability
Where Born

GROVES, Mary Annie Head Married  F 30 1871 Dressmaker Ripon
Yorkshire

GROVES, Flora Daughter Single  F 6 1895   Leeds
Yorkshire

GROVES, Thomas Son Single  M 3 1898   Leeds
Yorkshire

OWEN, William R Boarder Married  M 33 1868 Printers Cutter Southport

OWEN, Emily B Boarder Married  F 22 1879   Oxford

 

I assume that is Southport in Lancashire?

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

According to the Probate and Wills Index, Willam Rothell Owen Snr died on the 24th August 1936 in Bodmin, Cornwall.

He left £15 7s. 3d. to "Alice Anne Hawley" widow.

Who is she?

This would be his death entry giving and approximate year of birth of 1864

Civil Registration event: Death
Name: OWEN, William R
Registration District:  Bodmin
County:  Cornwall
Year of Registration:  1936
Quarter of Registration:  Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at death:  72
Volume No:  5C
Page No:  61

 

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Looking at the parish register of St Georges in Leeds.

William Rothell Owen and Emily Beatrice Watson married on the 28th May 1898.

Both were living at 11 Tonbridge Place.

William gives his age as 31, giving an birth year of 1867.

Emily gives her age as 19, giving a birth year of 1879.

Williams occupation is Warehouseman (the 4th different occupation so far) and his father is John Owen (deceased)

Hard to read, but his father's occupation looks like painter or joiner or printer.

Emily's father is George Watson (deceased) whose occupation was plasterer.

Both of them signed the register.

 

 

 

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Taking an educated guess, I would say that Rothell is the maiden name of William Rothell Senior's mother or grandmother.

Another educated guess is that William's place of birth is Southport in Lancashire.

Southport is in the registration district of Ormskirk or North Meols.

Only three Rothell birth entries are listed in the entire United Kingdom before 1900.

Matha Rothell 1838 in Ormskirk

Catherine Rothell in 1838 in Ormskirk

William Thomas Rothell in 1864 in Chorley.

Too much of a coincidence that the Rothells are in Ormskirk.

f.hancock
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 29-10-2011

Thank you Martin and Mark for all your interesting replies. I will try to acknowledge them all in order.

5. That rules my preferred William R out. He was in fact William Robert, christened at St Chad 17 May 1863 and his parents names tally with those of the invalid mentioned in 1871 and 1881.

You are quite correct in saying that the only real evidence I have of a Shrewsbury connection stems from the Cornwall school record. However the presence of William senior's future wife there in 1891 and the marriage of her parents there in 1879 does I think tend to confirm a connection of some sort. 

6. Tends to rule out any thoughts that he went to school in Shrewsbury.

7.  8. 9.  I already have the items referred to.

Mrs Hawley was his housekeeper. The marriage had broken up some years earlier and his wife was living in London.

We also have his obituary in which he is described as a war disabled man who suffered much and waited long for his rest. The coffin was draped in the Union flag and carried to the grave by four Sergeants of the Duke of Cornwall's Light infantry accompanied by a bugler. Mention is also made of him being a founder of the Bodmin British Leigon. It goes on to say that the outbreak of war in 1914 found him in employment in Cornwall and he joined the DCLI as a trainer until he was discharged in 1916 as medically unfit for further service.

Enquiries with his employers in 1914, the DCLI Regimental Museum and the British Legion have all failed to find any trace of him.

Information from a now deceased previous generation said that he served in South Africa with Lord Baden-Powell and was a member of the Borders Regiment.

Again, no trace has been found of him in connection with that Regiment.

10.  I have a certified copy of the certificate. The groom's father's occupation was builder. The fact that he has added Rothell (incidentally my eldest brother had Rothell as his first christian name) and she has changed her christian names from Emma Beatrice Turner to Emily Beatrice leads me to suspect that perhaps they thought they were hiding something.

Is there a site where certificates can be viewed ? 

Also does the fact that we can find no record of military service mean that he was accepted in 1914, when men were urgently needed, on the strength of an unchecked imaginative story ?

11  As the result of his mention of Southport and the Rothell references in the Ormskirk area, we spent a holiday in Southport about twenty five years scouring churches and cemeteries to find precisely nothing. A similar holiday in Shrewsbury at about the same time provided the same result.

Fred Hancock.

 

 

 

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Unfortunately his previous military records would be attached to his WW1 service records.

If the WW1 records were destroyed then his earlier records would be as well.

Ancestry have recently published the Yorkshire parish registers so you can view the originals on that site.

 

 

 

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

There is a WW1 medal card for a William Owen in the DCLI.

Regimental Number 260014 and 33664.

He was issued a Britsh and Victory medal and no mention of action overseas.

The Regimental Medal Roll should have information about the address of the soldier.

 

 

 

MarkCDodd
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 19 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

There is a William Owen, born Southport 1868, who enlisted into the Prince Consorts Own Rifle Brigade in March 1890.

Looking at his attestation papers....

He signs on to be part of the Militia for Tower Hamlets.

He is living at 47 Ellerdale Street (I assume this is in Lewisham due to his employer and militia county)

His employer is London General Omnibus Company and he is a stableman.

Looking at the 1891 census....there is nobody living at No 47!!

He is described as 5'7" in eight. Fresh complexion. Grey eyes. Brown hair. Church of england

 

 

Michael J Hulme
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 41 min ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Hello Fred

Returning to the possibility of your relative attending school in Shrewsbury, the information given by Mark Dodd in #6 refers only to Shrewsbury School - this is the Public School where, generally, only the children of wealthy parents went and still go. There will have been other schools in Shrewsbury for children of less wealthy parents and it is those schools you should be concentrating on.

On pages 224 and 225 of Kelly's Directory of Shropshire, 1913 there is a list of about 18 schools in Shrewsbury at that time. You can find this on the Internet at the Historical Directories web site. Choose 'Find by keywords' then select Shropshire from the location drop down list and enter Shrewsbury in the keyword box. Leave decade and name as 'All' and click 'Find Directories'.

Select Kelly's 1913 (bottom but one in my list) by clicking 'Directory'. Select 'Browse Directory' (top right) and enter 240 in the Go to Image box. (The page numbers and the image numbers don't coincide) You will then be able to print the pages by selecting 'View PDF'.

Mike

 

Martyn Freeth
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 44 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Another pennyworth. I surmise that the rarity of the surname ROTHELL may stem from its having been an elision or corruption of ROTHWELL, a frequent surname in Lancs. (And if anyone knows where my ancestors John and Sarah Rothwell, who appear at Isombridge, High Ercall, Salop just before 1700, came from, I would be delighted to hear!).

f.hancock
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, 29-10-2011

Thank you again for all the interest shown in our problem.

13   Had rather feared that may be the case.

14   I think those numbers have been checked at the DCLI but will check that and the Medal Roll next time I get down there.

15  This is one we haven't come across before. More research to do.

16  Very handy thank you. At least we now know what we are looking for if and when we get to Shrewsbury.

17  We spent quite a lot of time comparing the two names but never did come up with a connection.