Where was this photo taken

I'm getting a message from Flickr saying this photograph is private. Please alter the settings to make it public.

Mike

Hmm - that's odd! Leave it with me till I have a root around and see what's wrong.

Is that ok now?

Yes - we can view it now. Sorry I don't recognise the place.

Looking more closely at the photograph it appears that the ground has a cobbled surface (which may well have been covered over by now) and the diamond window panes are from a fairly distinct period of time.

Mike

The lower portion of the window panes appear opaque, which isn't normally seen and there is a building reflected but distorted in the top right section of the window, Sorry I don't recognise it either but noticed the aforementioned points, hope it helps somebody to have that Eureka moment.

It could help if Galloway Lass can say where her relevant famiy lived at various periods; and in particular who was her great-grandfather, what were his dates and what were his occupations in various years, eg from Census.

Vaguely I feel that at least for the men these are not Shropshire faces, and the hardness of expressions hints at a tougher, more industrial background. The flat hats were perhaps those of porters; and is any particular occupation suggested by the rough leather apron?

The earlier post referred to Murray family of Shropshire, Cheshire and Lancs. The architecture in the later "milk float" photo hints at influence from that of (but not itself in) the model village of Port Sunlight.

So, I wonder if the subject photo was taken in Cheshire.

The "milk float" photo was taken in Prestwich, Manchester where my father was brought up. His parents made their life there from c.1917 till the early 1950's. His father having come from Whitchurch to work as a warder/charge nurse in the county asylum. He had previously been a grocer's warehouseman according to the 1911 census. There is a 1912 letter of reference for him from Thelwell & Co., 4 High Street, Whitchurch which says he was with them for two years. His mother had come from Stoke on Trent as a nurse. They were married at St John, Burslem, Stoke on Trent in 1917 during his leave from the army. 

The earlier generations had no known connections to Lancashire.

Great Grandfather James MURRAY:

Born 16 January 1858 at St. John’s Hill, Ellesmere.

Fourth child (but 1^st legitimate one!!) of James MURRAY (variously pedlar, hawker, licenced hawker, labourer in a brickyard, dealer, general dealer, licenced lodging house keeper and finally marine store owner) and Ann STOCKTON.

Parents: James MURRAY baptised 5 September 1824 Nantwich, Cheshire died 14 January 1905 Turning Street, Overton, Flintshire and Ann STOCKTON born bet. 1821 -1831 Hankelow, Cheshire died 23 March 1904 Watergate Street, Ellesmere.

Married 28 December 1881 in the parish church, Ellesmere to Sarah Ann LATEWOOD born 5 May 1861 at Hampton Bank, Welshampton, Ellesmere died 3 December 1938 at 2 Belton Road, Whitchurch; a daughter of Joseph LATEWOOD (ag.lab.) and Mary GRINDLEY

Died 22 November 1920 at 4 Belton Road, Whitchurch.

Residences:

1861 census St John’s Hill, Ellesmere with parents

1871 census 21 Watergate Street, Ellesmere with parents

1881 census 41 Watergate Street, Ellesmere with parents

1882 and 1885 18 Chapel Street, Ellesmere. Birth of 1^st and 2^nd children

1887 64 Green End, Whitchurch. Birth of 3^rd child

1890, 1891 and 1893 Waymills, Whitchurch. 1891 census and births of 4^th- 6^th children

1897, 1899, 1901, 1904, 1911 and 1920 Belton Road, Whitchurch. 1901 and 1911 censuses, births of 7^th to 9^th children and death

Occupations:

1881 - 1891 blacksmith. Censuses, marriage, and births of 1^st and 2^nd children

1887 fitter. Birth of 3^rd child

1881- 1889 blacksmith (journeyman). Births of 4^th to 8^th children

1901 engine fitter. Census

1904 - 1911 mechanical engineer’s smith and fitter. Census and birth of 9^th child.

1917 engineer. Marriages of two children

1920 blacksmith (journeyman). Death. As declared by his widow.

1938 hydraulic engineer. Death of wife. As declared by his 5^th child Henrietta.

Property:

Family papers show that James owned nos 2 -12 Belton Road and lived in 2 and 4. The properties were sold on Sarah Ann's death in 1938. There is a belief that James actually built the terrace but I have no proof of that.

Ah! The further postings about James Murray, plus the text under the "shop" photo, which seems to have been added since one's earlier view, now hint at some solution.

The flat hats would have been appropriate for grocer's warehousemen, and that leather apron is of course what was used for unloading casks and barrels from drays.

So, I would hazard that these were the premises of Thelwell and Co whom "Lass" mentions in Whitchurch.

Pity that the detail was added while I was at Archives earlier this afternoon or I could have checked directories there. The whitewash on lower section of window also fits with this scenario. The brickwork looks latter 19th cent.

Query whether the premises survive in substantially the same form. Those cobbles probably would have gone, as H and S risk!

In 1871 a Sarah Thelwell had a fancy repositary in High Street, Whitchurch. I will now break off to look for her in 1881 Census via Family Search. (No Ancestry subscription to look for 1901).

At 1881 Census Sarah Thelwell was a dealer in glass, etc living at Small Brook Buildings, Whitchurch, a widow aged 63, born at Harthill, Cheshire. I doubt that she is one of the women in the photo. Have not yet looked for her death in FreeBMD. Also with her was granddaughter Grace A Read, aged 10. No other Thelwells in Salop in 1881 seem to be directly connected to Sarah. If Grace was later her heir and expanded or changed the business she might be in photo.

Wills proved through Shrewsbury District Registry between 1858 and 1940 are in indices at Shr Archives, as are full copies of the Wills in the yearly Act Books. 

Sarah Thelwell died in June quarter 1889 in Whitchurch District aged 73.

Wonder if that hammer was for tapping barrels / bunging corks?

If the premises were not in fact those of Thelwell and Co, some similar business is perhaps hinted at.

The photo with the man in the group is not of my grandfather Frederick Murray born 1893 in Whitchurch who worked at Thelwells before moving to Prestwich c. 1912 and later serving in Royal Garrison of Artillery 1914 - 1923. It is his father James Murray the blacksmith.

There is a further photo of James Murray at a later age on the flickr page along with photos of my grandfather Frederick. All the photos on flickr already had notes.

I and probably others am unfamiliar with Flickr - indeed my first experience. Only now do I see that you have to click on the photo to see a written comment. It is best to spell all this out. Also the above is first time that the name Frederick has been mentioned in the main text.

So now that we are dealing with James Murray born 1858 the question is how old does he appear to be in this photo. I would say over 30 but not as much as 40. If this is correct then from your later info he was living in Whitchurch. The apron and small hammer are now to be seen as a smith's accoutrements, but the flat hats of other men do not suggest fellow smiths; nor would that white jacket be really worn by a smith. So is this a family group, with James having broken off work to join in, or some other, business premises? I cannot assist further. You could do with a list of blacksmith businesses in Whitchurch from directories spanning the period of James' resdience there, and similarly (but not for identifying the photo) in Ellesmere where presumably he had his training

You mention a desire to find apprenticeship record. Personally I have no knowledge of depositaries of such at this late period. Indeed, one mainly comes across them, outside traditional guild companies, in parochial records, where, before the new system in 1836, the parish had paid for the apprenticeship. I have searched "james murray" in Shropshire Archives online catalogue. Nothing relevant to yours.

There is a Will for Sarah Ann on Ancestry as follows:

Sarah Ann Murray of 2 Belton Road, Whitchurch Shropshire widow, died 3rd December 1938. Administration London 23rd March 1939 to Joseph James Murray, retired police officer.

Also see my posting on your other query re Whitchurch Hertiage Centre. Hazel

"There is a Will for Sarah Ann on Ancestry as follows:

Hi again Hazel,

I have a copy of James's will but I have never seen Sarah Ann's one. My uncle has a copy of the accounts sent by the solicitor winding up her estate so we assumed she must have had a will. The Joseph James Murray mentioned was the couple's eldest child. I'll send off for a copy.

I've seen your other posting with details of the 2 societies. working at some distance from up here in Scotland, it's handy to be given this knowledge. Once again, many thanks.

"I and probably others am unfamiliar with Flickr - indeed my first experience. Only now do I see that you have to click on the photo to see a written comment. It is best to spell all this out."

Martyn, I was recommended Flickr by a member of another forum and I also had never previously uploaded any photos to the internet.

As I can see all the notes for each photo below the image on my screen, I would have imagined that so can everyone else. From what you have found then clearly, this is not so. As the logged in account holder, I have a different layout available to me. It is a learning curve for me as well. 

I have just clicked on the link to the flickr site without logging in and what I see is a number of thumbnails. As soon as I click on the image to see the full size, the text appears below, which is exactly what I see when I am logged in to my account.

The only other photo website I have viewed is photobucket which works in the same way. Visitors see thumbnails and click to see the full sized image. Is there a site which works differently and shows full sized images as standard view?

To clear up any confusion that may have arisen due to discussion of the milk float photo, I only mentioned my grandfather Frederick in a later post to distinguish him from his father James who is the person in the photo as originally posted.

As to the possiblilty of the photo being taken with family during a break from work, I would be inclined to think not. Of the first 7 children, James was the only boy. 4 of the sisters had already married in their home town of Ellesmere by the late 1880's and had gone to live in Staffordshire and Lancashire. James' two brothers were 11 and 15 years his junior.

Many thanks for searching the archive catalogue for details of his apprenticeship. His apprenctice piece (an iron foot stool) is in Lincolnshire with the descendants of his 2nd child Annie.

Get the photo dated by someone who can do so from clothing. If there is no one who can do this here. You can on the forum, rootschat.com. I am no expert, but looks like around 1890-1910. An expert will be able to give you a fairly accurate date within a few years, so it should be where ever he was living then - probably Whitchurch.

You can use Google Street View to look at images of the streets there today.

I'll try that thanks David. I've got a photo from a cousin in Bolton that shows what the family houses in Belton Road look like today. The Murrays lived in both 2 and 4 at some point but the accounts for my Great Grandmother Sarah Ann Murray's estate shows that they actually owned nos 2 -12 Belton Road and may have had them built.

Hi David,

I got a reply from someone on Rootschat, super quick too! From what she says, it seems that the photo is more likely to be somewhere in Ellesmere than in Whitchurch.

"The two younger ladies are dressed in a late 1870s-early 1880s style. A couple of the men are still wearing a style of facial hair from the 1860s called a Newgate Frill, which some men kept for the rest of their lives."

Many thanks for the tip.