TROTMAN/TROTMEN of St Alkmonds, Shrewsbury

Hi David

I hope to visit Shropshire Archives next week and am putting together my "hit list" of known and possible parish records etc to look up when there, so unless someone else who is popping in there earlier than me comes up with the goods, I will add the Trotman - Dyer marriage to my list. (The Archives aren't local to me either but they are an essential port of call for researching my Atcherley ancestors and cousins!)

A few Atcherleys have strayed into the south-west of England over the years so if I can help you out I may well take you up on your offer of a reciprocal look-up. John Atcherley had particularly strong connections with Bristol, see:

www.atcherley.org.uk/wordpress/john-atcherley-and-american-independence/

Steve

PS: Did William and Hannah also have a daughter named Rebecca, born 11 Feb 1814 and baptised 6 Jul 1815 at Tottenham Court Road Independent Chapel, St Pancras, London? I was looking to see if there were sibling baptisms which might shed more light on the family (e.g. abode, father's occupation) and this was the only one that popped up on FamilySearch. Sadly, if Rebecca was part of the family, the register entry doesn't really add anything beyond the FamilySearch record: "July 6th 1815. Rebecca daughter of William Trotman of the Parish of St Pancrass and Hannah his Wife, was born Feby 11th 1814 and baptized this day by John Hyatt." Occupations were entered for a couple of the fathers in the other entries (one was a smith, and one was a tallow melter) but not for William Trotman.

Hello Steve,

Thank you for your time. William TROTMAN was buried in Compton Abdale, Glos in 1855, Hannah his wife was buried there in 1837. She was baptised there in 1788. As indicated in my earlier posting they married in St Alkmond's and had at least one child baptised there (Anna Arella Maria TRETMAN). I do not know why or how they started married life in Shrewsbury or where William came from in the first place. I think I dentified him living in Cheltenham  but have not yet proved conclusively it's him and that he from Gloucestershire (1841 census). No known other connections outside of Gloucestershire and not identified him in the 1851 census.

David

To save Steve the trouble, here is the marriage, from fiche of registers of St Alkmund's:

William TORTMAN [ sic ] of the parish of Cheltenham in the county and diocese of Gloucster bachelor and Anna Maria DYER of this parish spinster were married by licence 22.11.1809. Both parties sign, he [ correctly ] as William TROTMAN, she in full. Witnesses Elizabeth CHAPPELL and George JACKS who both sign.

I skimmed a typed transcript of St A bapts for 1813 - no Hannah. But then surely she would have been bapt in Gloucs? Note that coverage of bapts in IGI generally tails off after 1812. She ought to be sought in

1851 Census for her place of birth.

I have not yet looked for A M DYER in IGI. St A bapts in much of 18th cent may still be missing from IGI; but "of this parish" is often no key to origins even when true.

Anna Bella Maria Ely (nee Trotman) turns up on the census returns from 1841 to 1861 with her husband Anthony Ely and in 1881 as a widowed farmer's wife (the couple had married at Chedworth, Glos - about 11 miles south-east of Cheltenham, and about 6 miles south of Compton Abdale - on 6 Apr 1834 according to FamilySearch). All the census returns from 1851 show Anna's birth place as Shrewsbury. Anthony Ely, farmer, died 4 Jan 1881 at Calmsden, North Cerney, Glos (just 2 miles south-west of Chedworth) according to the relevant entry in the National Probate Calendar, leaving a personal estate of under £3,000. The will was proved at Gloucester on 16 Mar 1881 by Anna Bella Maria Ely, Anthony's widow; Richard Trotman Ely, farmer, their son; Frederick Bailey, hat manufacturer, of Cirencester, and Arthur Townsend of Barnsley (in Glos).

From what I've seen while looking into this case, Trotman appears to be a Gloucestershire name so I would guess that William originated in that c.o.u.n.t.y, possibly in Cheltenham (his abode at the time of his marriage) or nearby but not necessarily. The fact that his daughter married a fairly wealthy farmer suggests the possibility that he may also have been a farmer or of similar standing. From Gloucester Notes and Queries (Volume V; 1891- 1893):

Notes on the Trotman Family.
FROM time to time it is proposed to give in these pages, collections of notes respecting some of the better-known Gloucestershire families, which will prove of service in compiling genealogies of them. ... A commencement is made in the present part with the Trotman family. ...

See: http://www.archive.org/stream/gloucestershire00unkngoog/gloucestershire0...

Or try the DjVu version (other options also available from the above page including PDF, Kindle etc):

http://www.archive.org/stream/gloucestershire00unkngoog/gloucestershire0...

The IGI shows a William Trotman baptised at Chedworth (where Anna Bella Maria Ely Trotman and Anthony Ely married) on 27 Dec 1789. The location might be a coincidence of course, but it looks interesting. There are several other William Trotman baptisms in Glos around that time period, some of which were non-conformist (possibly tying in with the Rebecca Trotman baptism in Pancras).

Finding a Will for William could be helpful, if he left one. I had no joy with the Wills of Gloucestershire website:

http://willsdb.gukutils.org.uk/GLS/WillsT.html

However that source may not be complete. You could try searching the Gloucester Archives Genealogical Database:

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx

Finally, check this out - a family tree showing the children born to a Thomas Trotman and a Frances Dyer of Chedworth, from 1766 to 1787:

http://dwelch.me.uk/genealog/trotman05.htm

Trotman and Dyer - coincidence? Certainly worth looking into, as I have found examples of several marriages of cousins (including first cousins) from neighbouring farming families in my Atcherley tree; see for example my article Kissing Cousins:

http://www.atcherley.org.uk/wordpress/kissing-cousins/

Hope this helps.

Steve

Noted Steve. You do not mention Anna Maria Ely's age in Censuses but I see from the "free" 1881 Census that she was 69, born in Shrewsbury. Unless I pop in to Archives again this afternoon (unlikely) you may be there next week before me. If so her bap (before 1813) is most likely to be found in St A (as not in IGI) followed by St Julian's and Holy Cross (the Abbey) for both of which IGI coverage is mixed. St Chad's and St Mary's are covered. My hunch is that Miss Dyer was bap in Gloucs.

There is a pedigree of Trotman in Visitation of Gloucs 1682-3, edited by T F Fenwick and W C Metcalfe. I obtained many photocopy extracts (but not this one) years ago via Gloucester Public Library. Policy on photos may since have changed - eg concern as to bindings. Many of these pedigrees contain editorial additions of later generations.

[ By the way, I have noted your Acherley website. I have my own table for the families, and from a very quick skim of yours, it appears to mirror your own. Mine created out of general not personal interest, but with a number of friends so descended. A cousin has much info on the Milward descendants (on which I helped); while I have much on some of the lines in, inc Elsmere (where Elizabeth is probably an ancestral aunt - uncertainty is not with Elsmere but later in one of the Wilding families). Perhaps I might compare notes sometime. ]

OK I will add Anna's baptism to my list.

David - If the Visitation of Gloucestershire 1682-3 is likely to be of use to you, copies on CD are available for purchase from various online sources (£16.45). There's also a lady named Wendy Angove who, if her web page is still current, has a copy and is willing to do look-ups:

http://www.angove.org.uk/wj/index.html

Martyn - Comparing notes would be good. I am currently working mainly on the 'female lines' incluing Elsmere, Dickin / Dicken, Dod(d), Lea, Goldsborough / Goldisbrough (and variants), Kinaston / Kynaston, Broughall, Basnet(t), Chetwood, Vaughan, Downes, Juckes, Jebb, Brookes, Icke, Ryley, Shakeshaft, Lloyd, Milward / Millward, Noneley (and variants) and Jones. All being well I will be at the Archives several days next week. If you'd like to make contact there's an e-mail address at the foot of my GOONS profile page: www.one-name.org/profiles/atcherley.html

Steve

HI Steve(Atcherley.org) & Martyn,

Many thanks for the pointers it gives me a lot to look at! The St Alkmond transcript of William and Hannah Maria's marriage was interesting and enlightening, specifically with the Cheltenham reference for William.  The Dyer family were/are well established in Compton Abdale where Hannah Maria Dyer (Williams wife) was baptised 28 April 1788. Which only makes me wonder why did they get married in Shrewsbury and how does she manage to get her marriage entry to read "of this parish".   Was St Alkmonds a place known for performing out of parish marriages? William  had a son called Richard who was an executor  of Anna's will (probate record 1887). So further researching required on that track. I was hoping that his baptism would show up in St Alkmond's helping to establish the family firmly in the area, or at least give me a strong reason for going to Shrewsbury to dig around. 

Again many thanks for the interest and expert help and guidance.

Hmm, a search for Richard Trotman born in the right time period throws up several census results, but this one in particular caught my eye:

1841: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
High Street
Piece 353, book 14, folio 4, page 3
Richard Trotman, 27, butcher, born in Gloucestershire
Caroline Trotman, 27, born in Gloucestershire
William Trotman, 50, plasterer, born in Gloucestershire
Plus a female servant, 2 journeyman butchers, and an apprentice.

Is this Richard Trotman, brother of Anna Bella Maria, with their father, the elusive William? If it is, we have William confirmed as born in Gloucestershire, and an approximate birth year of 1790/1791. Difficult to know whether this William's age was rounded down as per instructions to enumerators in 1841; most adult ages on this schedule seem to end in 0 or 5, but not all of them (Richard and Caroline being examples), suggesting that an age ending in 0 or 5 cannot necessarily be taken as being accurate (or as accurate as ages ever can be on a census!). So this William may have been born a little earlier than his given age suggests. Having said that, Gloucestershire BMD Indexes shows the death of a William Trotman, age 65, registered at Cheltenham in 1855. He is presumably the William Trotman aged 61, a plasterer apparently born in Tetbury, who appears on the 1851 census with his wife Ann, age 45 (2nd wife presumably - almost certainly the Ann LLoyd who married William Trotman at Cheltenham St Mary in 1849, as Ann Trotman a.k.a. Lloyd married James Hill at Tetbury Register Office in 1856, following William's death), also born at Tetbury.

Richard and Caroline (nee Humphris, who married in 1838 at Cheltenham St Mary, marriage registered at Cheltenham, June quarter, vol 11, p 224) turn up on the 1861 census at Shoreditch Industrial School in Essex where Richard was Master, and he gave his place of birth as Tetbury, as he did in 1871 when he was living on a "life annuity + house property" and again in 1881 (working as an insurance agent, wife now Esther, presumably a 2nd marriage) and in 1891 (living on own means, still with Esther). The nearest likely baptism on the IGI is one for a Richard Trotman at Tetbury on 29 Mar 1814, parents William and ... Mary Ann. Was Hannah Maria a.k.a Anna Maria was also known as Mary Ann?

The above Richard Trotman died on 5 Jan 1894, when he was Gentleman of Cirencester, according to the Probate Calendar - which ties in nicely with him being a Gentleman of Cirencester in 1887 in the Probate Calendar entry for his sister. His effects were valued at £427 5s. 6d and his wife Esther was one of the executors. His death registration shows that he then aged 79, which gives an approximate birth year that ties in with the baptism detailed above.

The only other possibility I can see is a Richard Trotman born at North Nibley around 1819, wife Zipporah, but he was an agricultural labourer and so unlikely to show up as a Gentleman in the Probate Calendar.

As for William marrying in Shrewsbury when it appears that both he and his wife were natives of Gloucestershire and William was still living there, there are various possibilities. One is that the family of Miss Dyer moved to Shrewsbury and she went with them. Another possibility is parental disapproval of the marriage! No doubt there are other potential reasons, all of which, like those I have already suggested, can only amount to speculation.

Steve

Steve,

What a star! Thank you for your efforts. I had picked up on William in the 1841 census and what appears to be his son Richard with his wife Caroline. All ties in name-wise with what I know. The follow through with the census returns are great. You are working faster than me on my problem and I'm really grateful for what you've done. Vitally I think William remarried in 1849 to Ann Lloyd (BMD reference) and subsequently I find them in the 1851 census resident in Cheltenham, where his birth place is show as Tetbury. All good news. I have just found a baptism for William Trotman,19th Nov 1789, parents Thomas Trotman and Joad IND in the I.G.I. It also gives a date of death for William 26th Jan 1855. All seeming to confirm and at last for me a break through in my researches. I am sending for the marriage certificates for William and Richard, just to see if they add anything and also of course confirm parentage and occupations.

It would seem that this particular branch of the Gloucestershire Trotmans are not the Gloucestershire worthies that appear in several publications and perhaps you're right in speculating that the parents disapproved of the marriage Hannah's parents being farmers and reasonably well off and with Hannah wanting  (or having) to marry a son of a plasterer was not what they thought of as a good match!

Regards,  David

No sign of any Trotman / Tortman bap 1809 to 1812 both years inclusive in St Alkmund's, St Julian's or Holy Cross, Shrewsbury. You must not however rely on me.

I met Steve at Archives. He agrees that the missing bap may well have been on home ground in Gloucs, whatever her later stated place of birth.

Hi Steve & Martyn,

Thank you both for your help. I'm well aware that without such forums AND people like yourselves research would be a lot harder.

I now have marriage details for Wiiliam Trotman (Plasterer) which gives his father Thomas Trotman (Hairdresser), now that occupation came as a surprise! Also Richards marriage to Caroline where his occupation is given as Butcher( yet another surprise) I am going to Gloucester records office in a couple of weeks to locate bapt/Marriage/Burial dates and I see they also have a will for Thomas the Hairdresser dated 1831 which may help shed more light on the family.

I know from the probate records Richard Trotman is described as Gentleman which "feels right" particularly as I have been given a small portrait of him that is in need of a lot of TLC to restore. A "Gent must have a portait of himself" don't you think.  But a nagging doubt exists as all the occupations for the Richard I'm tracking through the documents don't shout gentleman at me in what at least I think the Victorian era labelled as gentleman,   Butcher, Clerk, Master of a school,  Insurance Agent.  Still I'll keep nosing around to try and tie it all down.

Thanks again and  do you need anything from Gloucester records????

David