ROBINSON, Ellesmere

Hi,

Please don't forget that at the time of the 1841 census Richard could have been anything up to nearly 55.Now, I went forward before going backwards and found a couple who fitted the bill in the 1851 and 1861 census.In 1851 Ricard Robison aged 59 b Cheshire Baddeley and with a noted infirmity, wife Elizabeth 59 b Pixley and son John 28 b Pixley.Richard if this be he no longer an ag lab but farmer of 200 acres and something illegible and three labourers. This was at Hinstock.

I have found people being ag labs in one census and appearing as fairly substantial farmers the next.

In 1841 a John Robinson of the right age for the son is living away from his family as what appears to be an indentrured shoemaker in Ellesmere.

On 21 June 1830 Richard Robinson married an Elizabeth Griffiths at Hinstock. No sign of a Cheshire baptism though.

By 1861 Richard's farming has decreased to 20 acres though still at Hinstock. John is no longer there and there is a slight differential in the ages of Richard and Elizabeth, enough to have made the difference in 1841. Elizabeth has decided she was born at Chetwynd. I have assuned they came back to live nearer her part of Shropshire.

The exiting bit of this for me is that in 1851 the Robinsons had a number of servants, one of them being my great grandfather's sister Ann Higgins b. Childs Ercall. In 1855 she  married a chap from Hinstock and left domestic service.

Of course I may be up the wrong tree and the Robinsons may have died beween '41 and '51

What is your interest in the Robinsons please?

Regards

Chris

 Well MM, bit of a mystery ! According to IGI MARY was born to them in about 1818. I thought that the boy BENJAMIN BROOKS might be their Grandson,  but in parish records can't find either their marriage or Benjamins birth !!  What I have found is the same as you with MARY being their daughter. She married twice, firstly RICHARD PAYNE then he died in 1852 Gt Ness, and she married EDWARD MORRIS 29 November 1860 Gt Ness, Salop. They are on the 1851 census in Gt Ness, with her children from first marriage. But sorry that's all I can contribute MM. So, Benjamin can't be Mary's son ?

Ang  

Husband
	Richard Robinson Pedigree
	Birth: About 1791 , , England Christening:     Marriage: About 1816 Of, Great Ness, Shropshire, England Death: MAR 1848 Great Ness, Shropshire, England Burial:

Wife
	Mrs Elizabeth Robinson Pedigree
	Birth: About 1786 Of, Great Ness, Shropshire, England Christening:     Marriage: About 1816 Of, Great Ness, Shropshire, England Death: JUN 1849 Great Ness, Shropshire, England Burial:

1.		Mary Robinson	Pedigree
		Female
		Birth: About 1818 Great Ness, Shropshire, England Christening:     Death:     Burial:

Hello, Angela !

Many thanks for that -- I must admit, I had not even SEEN poor little Benjie (-:

so tied up was I with Mrs Robinson...

Checked out "Brooks" to no avail, then looked at my scan again -- I think it is actually "BROCKS"...

viz:

Event(s):
	Birth:
	Christening:	30 APR 1835   Fitz, Shropshire, England
	Death:
	Burial:

Parents:
	Father:	THOMAS BROCK	Family
	Mother:	ANN

Wonder if this is his he ? (& therefore his parents ?)

THE MYSTERY DEEPENS !

There is another BROCK  in the area also, looks like a very rare name...

Deaths Dec 1867   (>99%)
Brock	John	61	Ellesmere	6a	463

This is going to take a bit more effort, I see !

Many thanks for your valuable input !

mm

I too wondered about Bejamin.

The writing is very poor, could be Brooks or Brock. No sign of him in later censuses either.

Hello, Chris,  I much appreciate your thoughts (-:
Would Pixley class as "Y" (for born in Salop) at 1841 (like she says...) ?

In IGI, I found a bapt. for an EG in JAN 1802 at Dilwyn, I guess this makes her too young though (if 55 at 1841...) unless she were christened late (she would be abt age 8 in 1802...).  I guess Pixley is abt 12 miles from Dilwyn ? seems quite a way out...  Also, seems to be a lot of places for one person !

My interest in these Robinsons, is that their dtr Mary & her husband Richard Payne, were parents to (among others) Emma Payne, b. 1850 (whom we find at the 1861 Census – as Angela35 rightly says – with her mother and step-father Edw Morris).    Therefore these Robinsons are my GGG G-P (-:

Back to the Atlas !

MM

Hello

Pixley is between Hinstock and Child's Ercall so it is in Shropshire. It is in Hinstock parish (just) but right on the boundary with Child's Ercall and a detached piece of Chetwynd parish.

See England Jurisdictions 1851

Mike

Aha, many thanks for that, Mike (and apologies to Chris Wibbereley if any skepticism showed through, earlier !)
This changes everything for me !
I had PIXLEY in Hereford & Worcs, abt six miles east of Hereford...  I obviously need a better Atlas  than my "4 miles-to-the-inch" beginner’s guide...
What is extremely strange/curious, is I have a "free-electron" family connection with Cheswardine, which is only just up the road... Psychogenealogy at work here?

Profound thanks to all my repondents on this one !

morrisonman

For a period around 1840 the area of Felton Butler (parish of Great Ness) and Pixley in the N E of Shropshire were worlds apart, economically and demographically.

If Richard was indeed not born in Shropshire I feel it more likely that he came in from Monts or Denbighshire, neither being too many miles away from Great Ness. Neither shire is covered before 1813 in IGI, at least not on a normal, surname basis apart from private entries.

I might try to look for a marriage there at Archives later in week; and any baps (or burials to fit the FreeBMD dates). (I have to close down entirely to change to the cd of the SFHS marriage index - still in its infancy).

As regards IGI for this area please note that West Felton, adj GN to the north, is not covered before 1813.

Hello, Martyn, thanks for that valued input.

I was just about to respond to Chris Wibberley, concerning his work on the farmers Robinson of HINSTOCK, still alive at the 1861 Census: FreeBMD has a couple of likely-looking deaths for them: Market Drayton, 3Q and 4Q of 1864.  Quite tempting...

I much appreciate your kind offer to browse the marriage index; I tried to purchase the Shropshire Burials Index some months ago, but it is sold out !

Awaiting any inputs with interest!

Best regards / MM

My marriage index cd refuses to work today; but from the cd of Bill Barker's "Families of Montgomeryshire" I see refs to Robinson in Llandrinio in 1749 (a bap) and 1799 (a burial at Guilsfield of Mary from Llandrinio).  That parish was, at its nearest point, only about 5 crow-fly miles due west of Felton Butler, but with river Vyrnwy intervening. The surname is well-known in earlier periods SW of Welshpool. The records that Bill used were patchy. Members of Monts Gen Soc can ask for searches from a database of registers. (I found thereby a missing ancestress, bap 1781, in Llandysilio (next to Llandrinio) not to be found in Bill Barker).

PS: "Chris" is Mrs Christine Wilbberley, of Accrington.

Response for Chris Wibberley:

Hi, Chris, you said, "21 June 1830 Richard Robinson married an Elizabeth Griffiths at Hinstock. No sign of a Cheshire baptism though."

After putting thinking cap back on, this marriage occurs too late for them to be mine: at the 1841 Census, "their dtr MARY ROBINSON" (my assumption) had a dtr Elizabeth aged 8 months…  In effect she married Richard PAYNE at Gt Ness, 31 DEC 1840. Therefore I need a marriage prior to about 1815...

Many thanks anyway for your appreciated inputs (-:

Best regards, MM

To Martyn and Chris W:

Apologies for the gender error (-:

MM

No problem. My fault for the somewhat androgynous name.

My husband and I are Chris and Mel Wibberley!

I do see that if Mary is their daughter then that sets asde the Robinson's of Hinstock, who oddly aren't immediately traceable in the 1841 census and in many ways fit the profile.

Had got quite exited about that with gg Aunt Ann being their servant.

Difficult to say where Mr Robison might have come in from as he is an ag lab in an agricultural county bordering onto several other agricultural counties. I do however take Martyn';s point that they are more likely to have come from the west than the east.

You seem to have the classic situation of people only named in one census with few details to ascertain their place of origin, or at least Richard's.

Unsure why it won't let me say 'areas'?

I guess it is because it might be a sort-of anagram of something "dangerous " ?

(like counties... (for example...)

oh the intricacies of online censorship (-:

mm

To Chris W:

Yeah, I can understand your deception about the HINSTOCK connection !

Just imagine, I have a similar one, re Cheswrdine !

(we are Yorkshire folk, and our eldest brother was at White Fathers, Cheswardine, MANY years ago !)

Could never understand the reasons for crossing the country like that...

Now it is obvious - we are Shropshiremen (via our GM !)

What comes areound, goes around / il n'y a pas de coïncidences...

mm

MM, here is the easy bit.

Great Ness burials: 12.2.1848 Richard Robinson, Felton Butler, 64 years. Not having notes with me did not then try for Elizabeth. To follow, perhaps.

Your problems, if not enough, start here:

Great Ness baps searched from 1.1.1813:

17.5.1818 Mary d of Richard and Elizabeth Ravington or Ravenshaw, Felton Butler, labourer;

May [ ? date blotted, forename added in margin ] 1821 Anne ditto ditto ditto

17.6.1824 Sarah ditto ditto ditto

No MIs for any variant of these surnames at Great Ness per SFHS transcript.

If you search Ravington surname only all ceremonies in IGI for Salop the above occur, and only a couple of at presnt unconnected entries.

No marriage for any Robinson / Ravington / Ravenshaw in Great Ness or next door Montford from 1.1.1813. Before then would be in IGI. Boyd's index, a typescript at Archives, comprising all entries in all printed registers for Shropshire has only Richard Robinson and Elizabeth Harding in 1804 in Ludlow. But I know all about them already from other research. To search other Salop marriage registers would be large task. Not readily seen in SFHS marriage index, but this still in infancy.

I did much work on Ravenshaws some months ago, much posted on old message board. A Shropshire and earlier Cheshire family, mainly in north Salop. I have printed material to browse again later, but I hold out no hope: these were all substantial farming families and well connected. (If minded to browse IGI you need Ravenshaw and Renshaw).

You might go back to 1841 Census and browse sideways to get surnames of nearby households, partic at the farms. Might be clues More anon.

Wow, Martin, that is fantastic detective word, thanks ever so much!

I am now getting the gardening gloves on and heading off to IGI etc !

Will report back ASAP !

Crème de la crème investigation here !

mm

Back sooner than expected !

Much feverish activity –
Exhaustive search of IGI yields no marriage betw. Richard + Elizabeth, under Ravenshaw, Renshaw; Wrenshaw or even ROBINSON (!) in Salop.

I next tried "Richard Robinson & Elizabeth” for all counties, about 12 in Lancs, none of which bought my eye (too far north ?) (or maybe because I'm from t'other side... ?).
However, in Cheshire, there is a “reasonable” added marriage for 1813 at Daresbury… stating she is "Elizabeth Clark".

Checked IGI for her birth, & found one for Daresbury, 1793 (this time, an extracted entry).
Must admit, this looks somewhat young compared with 1841 Census at Felton Butler, where her age is “55” thus b. c. 1786… (then again, Richard Robinson is “50” in 1841, but a whacking great 64 (provided it is he…) at his d. 7 yrs later in 1848) (therefore b.c. 1784 or 1783).

The baptism entry gives her parents as Ralph Clark and Mary Clark.

I checked for a marriage entry on IGI, there is one, but unofficial, for 7 Feb 1775, stating wife’s name = Mary RAVENSCROFT…

Perhaps just coincidence ?  Makes me wonder whether when the children were born at Gt Ness, they were not in fact married, and that he was plain "Richard Something, and it was SHE that was "Elizabeth Ravenshaw", using her mother's maiden name ? is this possible ? or maybe Richard is in fact a COUSIN ? eek -- geting complicated, I'd better go !

MM

Yes, I have noted the marriage of Richard Robinson in 1813 in Cheshire. (Please note that IGI coverage there is thin). And that couple, per a "parent" search had three children 1813 - 1816, but no more.

Lots to speculate upon further there, MM.

But you have reported the 1841 wife as born in Shropshire. (I tried yesterday to repeat the Census search at Archives but Ancestry was in a contrary mood).

Just to confirm the chain, where and when were Richard Payne and Mary Robinson married, by the way? And where have you found them in which Censuses? And where did Mary say she was born?

Am proposing these next searches:

Burial of Elizabeth at Great Ness;

Any baps 1813 - 1818 at Montford (not in IGI after 1812);

Any Poor Law settlement papers at Great Ness or adj parishes;

Marriage 1813 - 1820 at Shrawardine, Kinnerley, Knockin, Baschurch and (for longer, earlier period - no IGI) West Felton. (However many country couples married in one of the five Shrewsbury parishes or Meole Brace).

MM, have today seen the marriage 30.12.1840 at Great Ness of Richard Payne and Mary Robinson, both of Felton Butler, and all else fitting with what known. I then checked all marriages there 1832-1863 in case another Robinson or variant occurred. Found that 7.6.1850 of Thomas Vaughan, bachelor and labourer of full age, of Tedsmore, p of West Felton, s of Richard Vaughan, labourer; and Sarah Robinson, spinster andservant of full age, of Great Ness, d of Richard Robinson, labourer.

No Robinson burials at GN 1813 to end 1837, per SBI.

No poss marriage of Richard and Elizabeth at West Felton 1804-1820 inc.

No Poor Law refs in GN parochial records, except removal 26.4.1755 of William Robinson, weaver and Mary his wife (any children would have been mentioned) from p of Shrawardine (which adjoins GN on SW) to GN. They married 25.4.1749 at GN, he of Shrawardine, she Mary Logan of p of GN. She buried 6.9.1764 at GN as Mary Robinson alias Logan.

But note that settlement certs for GN end in 1755.

Finally, from today, GN burials: 16.5.1849 Elizabeth Robinson, Felton Butler, 70 years.

00000000

Am wondering if the "Ravington or Ravenshaw" arose because the incumbent couldn't hear a slurred or similar version of Robinson. But then the wordingwas used 1818, 1821, 1824.

More thoughts perhaps anon.

Nothing in Montford Poor Law; Shrawardine non-existent.

Thank you Martyn, I much appreciate your exhaustive research !
=================
Re the 1813 Daresbury marriage: I had not thought to do an "offspring search" for them, at least they can now be eliminated from enquiries...

Regarding existing information, per 1841 Census:
Richard Payne, aged 26, born in county (ties in nicely with his bapt, 1816, Montford).
Mary Payne, aged 20, born in county,
At 1851, Richard Payne / aged 34 / Ag Lab. Born in "Dito" (= Salop) / Montford
Mary, aged  30 / born in county, Great Ness.

At 1861, she is remarried, to Edward Morris, & aged "43" & born Great Ness.

At 1881, she is "60" & states "Great Ness" again (she is with Edw. Morris at Ruyton XI Towns).
These are from my Census database (I currently am bereft of a paying look-up facililty).

Their GRO marriage cert at Great Ness, 30 Dec 1840, clearly states her father as "Richard Robinson"). All the "Robinson" names are in fact quite legibly written.
They are both "Servant" at Felton Butler.  Richard signs, but Mary puts her mark.
Their witnesses are "the Mark of Thomas Davies", "Thomas Jeffreys", "Richard Evans". The officiant looks like "William Jones, C of E Minister"

So thanks to your hard work, it looks like she has a sister, Sarah, marrying 1850.  Ties in nicely with the sibling bapt. you found me earlier at Gt Ness. Such sibling info is actually very nice to have – it is giving her "paper" character actual human substance, that I can work on later !

Idem with your discovery of William Robinson the weaver at Shrawardine : guess this hints at a ROBINSON presence in the area, I am seriously wondering now if the 1841 "out of county" info is actually "true" as regards RR...  Also interested to see that Wm’s wife was "Mary Logan" -- might hint at Irish origins here (but that is another story...)

Finally, thank you for confirming burial details of Elizabeth Robinson, Felton Butler, 1849 this gives me substance to their potential d. off FreeBMD that I had already spotted, I can now get these certs (-

All good stuff, many thanks again !

I note your hypothesis about possible permuting of "Robinson" into "Ravington" or "Ravenshaw": for starters, the number of syllables is identical... It would be interesting to see whether Mary Robinson & her sibling were baptized by the same minister; and that he "always thought" they were called "Ravington" because (for example) of a speech defect on one side, or a hearing defect on the other ?  or local habit etc...  (I do know of several such cases from life & lore...)

Back later with rest of my discoveries as & when !
MM

One's potterings are as yet far from exhaustive! The marriage of RR and E needs searches in Kinnerley, Knockin, Baschurch, Shrewsbury St Chad's (very busy, and included Bicton on the road to GN), St Julian's (included Shelton and Oxon on same road), St Alkmund's (included a bit by Montford Bridge), Holy Cross ( = the Abbey), Meole Brace. (Shrewsbury St Mary's, also v busy, is covered by IGI from 1812).

But first I might ask Mr T E Gwynne for a search of his Monts Marriage Index. May mail him or catch him at Archives.

No, don't think that you can yet rule out the Prestbury / Daresbury possibilities: those three sons (per private submission) fit in before first child at GN.

Also must check full entry for Benjamin Brock 1835 at Fitz. This adjoins GN to South east. Note that Brock and Brook(e/s) are separately grouped in IGI; but no ready trace of parents' marriage therein.

Hello, Martyn,

Thank you for the latest update !

Hoping to avoid getting under one’s feet (!), I checked IGI for Salop, and Marriages betw. an ELIZABETH and a RICHARD, omitting surnames,  for period 1808 to 1818.

Nothing interesting-looking or untoward if not M at St Chad, 7 SEPT 1817. betw. Elizabeth Roberts and Richard Roberts (bought my eye becoz possible intra-family relationship ?)

I attempted an offspring search for this couple, for the period 1817 till 1837...
However, not simple: seems to be at least three sets of offspring here, one towards Oswestry, and another around Pontesbury, and Whittington.  In final analysis, I expect not significant to my Robinson search, but would appreciate your opinion nonetheless...

============

In other developments, guess I am very relieved that the Daresbury connection is not yet discard-worthy......

(Firstly, I had not grapsed significance of boys' arrivals fitting in with later sibling group at Great Ness).

(Secondly, I had failed to observe presence of a MARY in this group, for 1821, Daresbury...) - gives me the feeling that somebody has been exploring all this B4 me !).

(Thirdly, although not scientific, a Cheshire origin would mate nicely with subsequent ROBINSON ramification in Wybunbury area...)...

Many thanks again !

MM

It may be a reasonable supposition that Benjamin Brock (? to be read as Brook/s) who was with Richard and Elizabeth Robinson at Felton Butler at 1841 Census was their nephew. He cannot have been grandson as will be seen below.

Fitz baps: 30.4.1835 Benjamin s of Thomas and Ann Brock [ might be read as Brook, or with final twirl, Brooks ] , Leaton Heath, labourer. (LH was at eastern end of Fitz parish and about 4 miles east of Felton Butler; Leaton itself was then in the northern outliers of St Mary's, Shrewsbury; both in modern civil parish of Pimhill).

No sign of his burial at Fitz or Great Ness. However, Fitz burials (1813-1881 searched):

13.5.1833 Ann Brook(s), underneath with is written Brock, Leaton Heath, [ aged ] 4;

28.5.1833 Jane ditto ditto ditto 11 months

29.3.1835 Ann Brock [ query read Brook or with twirl, Brooks ] , Leaton Heath, 43.

I suggest that she was the mother of Benjamin, died in or through childbirth, leading to the farming-out of Benjamin. No sign of burial and indeed no further reference to Thomas, either in Fitz or Great  Ness (burials searched 1813-1881).

Marriage searches, for Richard Robinson or our variants, and for Thomas Brock / Brook (latter not in Boyd's Index but this tails off after 1812 until end in 1837):

Baschurch, Fitz, Kinnerley, Meole Brace, Myddle (reason below), Ruyton-XI-Towns 1813-37; Knockin 1813-33, Preston Gobalds 1813-34. All these are covered by IGI or Boyd before 1813. A marriage of William Brookes of the p, bachelor and Sarah Gittins of the p, spinster 7.5.1835 at Baschurch, neither literate; witnesses John Gittins X, Sarah Jenks X, Richard Davies, a regular who signs.

St Chad's 1813-end 1818 (for the mo).

Have since pottered in IGI for Salop, Chesh, Wales for these Brocks or Brooks (separate groupings). Query where were Jane and daughter Ann baptised? It looks as if the Brocks moved into Fitz in or just before 1833. St Mary's ought perhaps to be tried - not in IGI after 1812, I believe.

You might now try further for the widowed Thomas Brock / Brook / Brooks in 1841 or 1851 Censuses. I found a Thomas at Marton, parish of Myddle in 1841 but age (even if rounded down) of 25 looks difficult. He was howver with a presumed father Benjamin.

No reference to Brock, etc in Fitz Poor Law summaries.

Hello, Martyn,

Thank your for all of that, I am sure I found that Benjamins' mother was Ann Gittins, but cannot find her for the life of me now in my notes !

However, I have been pursuing possible marriages for Richard Robinson & Elizabeth, so far only for Salop: the only one bing the one you mentioned from Ludlow, 1804, and the "fabricated evidence" re  "Mrs Elizabeth", Great Ness, 1816.

The only other offering I have is Richard HOLINSHAW, 3 FEB 1812 marrying @ Madeley, with Elizabeth Jones.  Again, I am considering possibility of mis-hearing / speech impediment etc.( On the whole of FreeBMD, there are only N=2 "Holinshaw" anywhere !  and on IGI, he is quite simply a LONE SOUL (with just a "Richard Hollingshaw" in Manchester (perhaps a "distant cousin" ?). What is interesting, is Richard Holinshaw does not have a birth or a christening ! Yet there are around 14X Richard Robinsons in  Shropshire of the right birth age for marrying in 1812...

Throwing this into the crucible, therefore  & interested for your opinion as ever (-:

MM

MM, the William Brookes and Anne Gittin(g)s who were married in 1835 settled in Hadnall. Make a parent search to see issue there. (Leave out her surname, of course). Then do same for Benjamin Brook and Elizabeth, any period Salop, to see them and issue, including the Thomas (bap 1813 at Hadnall Indep chapel, who was with B and E Brook in 1841) and possibly that William, married in 1835. I now think that the Census reading should be Haston (rather than Marton) (pronounced Hayston, by the way) which is in Hadnall parish and long, but prob not then, part of the Hardwicke and Sansaw estate. Census refers to Myddle parish, but Hadnall historically was a chapelry of Myddle.

One cannot say that any of this connects with Thomas who was at Leaton Heath in 1833/5.

Hadnall (C of E) marriages before 1857 are lost, unless in BTs and LDS had filmed such. But you will see that marriage of Benjamin Brook(s) and Elizabeth is not in IGI. She supposedly a Bailey. Baps also lost 1763-83.

Haston is close to parish of Clive, containing Sansaw which for some period in 18th century was tenanted by Ravenshaws. Pure coincidence perhaps.

Martyn, Many thanks for the Brock/Brooks research, which it is going to require some considerable time on my own part, to get my head around !  I have copied all the notes for perusal during my hols by the sea !

In the meantime, I have been back at IGI, looking through my spyglass at the Madeley marriage of Richard HOLINSHAW, and particularly at his spouse, Elizabeth Jones...

Based on the Great Ness death of Elizabeth (70 in 1849), I "need" someone born in 1779 or 1798, I guess...  (at 1841 Census, she says she is "55") (= 1786... etc.) Perhaps "poetic license"?

I checked IGI for births for this potential spouse EJ, for period 1770 to 1780, there is only ONE bapt. Madeley... (July 1778)

There are TWO bapt. in Great Ness (8 May 1777) and 26.12.1777.  (8th of May bean an extremely significant date in psychogenealogical terms in my overall family...)

Wonder if one or other of these ladies might be Mrs Robinson ?

Did Miss Jones come from Madeley, and end up in Gt Ness after marriage?

Or was she born in Gt Ness, ended up marrying in Madeley, then returned home with hubby Robinson, AKA "HOLINSHAW" that the Gt Ness parson could not understand, therefore noting him as RAVENSHAW" when baptizing his three dtrs as of 1818 ?  An awful lot of enigmas and unsolved questions in this one (-:

Thanks again for your supreme patience, efforts & feedback !

MM