Does anyone know or heard of Byetake?

14 replies [Last post]
Ron and Jan
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 42 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 9-06-2014

Hi all,

Jan's dad spent a lot of time as a boy growing up around Shinton in Harley. He has odd memories of his dad and grandfather doing things around there, which is fascinating to listen to and is helping Jan piece together some of his past and that of his father and grandfather.

One of the places he brings up a lot is a place he called "The Byetake". We have searched for this place or property but have drawn a blank. What we do have is a postcard his brother addressed to his mum when he was in West Kirby, maybe on holiday or working, we are not sure yet. Anyway the address is as follows:

Mrs Hall, No 40 The Byetake, Shinton Road, Harley, Much Wenlock, Shropshire. The postcard is dated 22nd August 1933.

Another thing he partially remembers is he and his sibling went to school at Shinton but we are not sure if there was only one school there at the time and he can't remember, at 91 with failing health it is understandable, but it would be interesting to learn a little about the school and things going on around there at that time which we can relay back to him and may help bring back other memories.

Thanks in advance

Ron & Jan

 

Gwynne Chadwick
Offline
Last seen: 17 weeks 2 days ago
Joined: Sunday, 19-06-2011

Hi Ron & Jan,

There was an excellent book published some years ago "Gazetteer of Streets, Roads and Place Names in Shropshire" compiled by H.D.G Foxall.
It contains over 27,000 entries from a vast range of sources but there is no entry for Byetake. That leads me to suggest that it was the name of the house at No.40 rather than the name of a district. However, a local may know better.
My records show that Bridgnorth Library have a reference copy of two books that may help;
 "Sheinton, Shropshire" by the Sheinton Heritage Group.
and
"Harley village - A Shropshire Village of Yesteryear" by Hilda Preece.
I can offer to check both during the next few days.

Gwynne

 

Ron and Jan
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 42 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 9-06-2014

Hi Gwynne,

Thank you for taking the time, once again, to look into this for us. Jan's dad's memory is somewhat confused and we think at times he may muddle up things. He says that when he lived there it was a farm, which he seems to think was owned by the Davis's. Given that the question is was 40, The Byetake the house he lived in and the farm somewhere he has fond memories of visiting (his father was a farm labourer) or was 40, The Byetake the address of the farm?

We would be grateful if you could check the books you mention and was also wondering if the books are still in print and if so if you could find out the ISBN numbers of both from the copies at Bridgnorth Library so that we can purchase them?

Thanks again Gwynne.

Ron & Jan

 

Gwynne Chadwick
Offline
Last seen: 17 weeks 2 days ago
Joined: Sunday, 19-06-2011

Hi Ron & Jan,

A check of the Tithe Apportionment field names in the Harley and Sheinton area didn't show any mention on "The Byetake"

I checked the reference copy of the book in Bridgnorth Library "Harley village - A Shropshire Village of Yesteryear" by Hilda Preece.
A most enjoyable booklet containing the many varied memories of Hilda Preece growing up in Harley village in the early 1900's. Numerous sketches include Harley School and both Harley and Sheinton Churches.
The booklet was privately printed - no ISBN number - in perhaps the 1980's with proceeds to Harley Church. A long shot but a letter to Harley Church may provide a lead to obtaining a copy.
I'll email you a few pages.

The other book I mentioned was "Sheinton, Shropshire" by the Sheinton Heritage Group. ISBN  0-9545251-1-6
A very good professional looking glossy book covering the geology, landscape, history and archaeology of Sheinton. It therefore covers every aspect of the village, with photographs including Sheinton School in 1990.
Copies available from The Editor. 36 Severn Way, Cressage, Shrewsbury. SY5 6DS
Also available from this Society. Click on 'Shop' then scroll down to 'Local and General Interest Books' then scroll half way down. £5.00 plus £1.90 p&p.
Hope it helps.

Gwynne

Ron and Jan
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 42 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 9-06-2014

Hi Gwynne,

Many thanks for the information, we have just got home so will check email shortly.

Regarding "Sheinton, Shropshire" we will order that. It will prove an interesting read and maybe there will be places Jan's dad will remember which in turn will spark more information of his parents, grand parents and siblings. We have got quiet a bit of information regarding the three generations so far as well as the names of his great grand parents. There are, as you can imagine, a few spaces to fill in but one step at a time!

A couple of hours with Jan's dad today did reveal, if his memory is correct, that "The Byetake" was on a farm. We conclude from what he said that maybe "The Byetake" were dwellings for some of the farm workers. He clearly remembers sleeping above what seems to have been a courtyard where farm animals were drove under where he slept. So with that in mind it seems that No. 40 was perhaps the dwelling number of the farm? We imagine it as something like a bridge above the entrance to the courtyard.

Again many thanks for your time and information Gwynne.

Ron & Jan

John Shearman
Offline
Last seen: 40 weeks 3 days ago
Joined: Tuesday, 24-05-2011

As another line to follow:

The 1901 Census shows a Bytake in Buildwas parish, in the right sort of area I think.  There are two houses - one is occupied by a gamekeeper, Bernard Langton, and his wife Annie, the other is uninhabited.

The reference is RG13/2527 f6 p4.

The name must mean something but I've had no luck with that yet.

John Shearman

Michael J Hulme
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 7 min ago
Joined: Saturday, 4-06-2011

Hello Ron and Jan

Whilst I don't have an answer to your problem there are a few points which might give you food for thought.

Shinton [Sheinton] Road, Harley would be expected to run in a north easterly direction but there is no such road on the modern map. However if you look at the old 6 inch to 1 mile Ordnance Survey maps (available on CD from the society) a road or track used to run from a point near to where the road from Harley village joins the modern bypass (near the Nurseries) north east to Belswardyne and Sheinton.  Whilst the 6 inch map doesn't show your place name (if it did then it would have been included in the Foxall Gazetteer referred to above) it might be worth looking at some 25 inch to 1 mile (1:2,500) maps at Shropshire Archives to see if anything shows up on those.

I find the address on your postcard quite strange. For a start I can't imagine how the number 40 has been arrived at. Where would you find such a concentration of people or properties in this rural area? Even giving a road name is a bit odd because none of the modern addresses for properties in Harley give a road name and none of the roads seem to have allocated names even now.

If you go to Shropshire Archives it might be worth looking at Voter's Lists to see if you can find Mrs Hall in the Harley / Sheinton area.

I really can't imagine a farm having 40 in the address. Whilst some farm names repeat fairly often the name of the farmer together with the name of the farm and the village where the postal deliveries were made from would be quite sufficient.  Harley doesn't have a Post Office now and may never have had one so their mail would have been delivered from Cressage or Much Wenlock.

With regard to your last post and the mention of a courtyard and a bridge (arch ?) it might be worth you having a trip to Belswardyne Hall and Farm (approach from the A458 Cressage near top of the hill) because that is in the right location and could well fit the description provided the old buildings have not been removed to make way for new ones.

If you read this page on the Discovering Shropshire's History web site you will find the following which seems to fit in with the description you gave. "Stable block ... originally consisting of central gabled break with flanking wings, left with blind elliptical arch and right with segmental arch (now with C20 doubled doors) ..."

Mike

Mike Jones
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 7-05-2012

I've found quite a few Bytakes. There is a Bytake farm, west of Shrewsbury, and a couple of Bytakes as dwelling places on the 1881 census for Montgomeryshire (interestingly, both uninhabited, which might suggest some sort of temprary or seasonal dwelling place such as a lambing hut?)

There is also a Court Bytake address at Old Church Stoke, Montgomery, so it seems quite a local name.

In the 1901 Welshpool census, an Edward Jones, stockman,  is living in "Abbey Bytake" with wife and four children.

 

Good luck with your search.

Mike

Mike Jones
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 7-05-2012

And this from an online Welsh Journal - you can google the text to see the source.

From this Tynycelin comer a road led to the west in the direction of
the Wern. The main branch ran by the Bank Farm and continued towards
Crowther's Coppice and then on towards Welshpool. On this road and
between the Bank House and Welshpool there were several small holdings and
cottages. There were the Tan House Farm, the Lake Farm (lately called
Crowther's Hall) Bytake, two cottages near by, then another bytake now put
to Dyers Farm.

Mike

Mike Jones
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 7-05-2012

The National Archives has these:

 A Particular of several pieces of land belonging to William Owen Esq set for grazing in 1779 to quit at Candlemas 1780, and grass set "Rent Roll of the Bytakes at Woodhouse for the year 1779 ending at Candlemas 1780 No.3" 3890/3/2/19 1779-1780

 Annual Rental of Bytakes Tythes etc. for 1782, with amendments for 1783 and A Yearly rental of Bryngwyn Estate ending Lady Day 1783 3890/3/2/20 1782-1783

 A Yearly rental of Rednal Estate &c of Wm Owen Esq ending Lady Day 1783 "Rental of By-takes for the years 1782 and 1783" 3890/3/2/21 1782-1783

 2 pages - Tenants names; nature of takings, yearly rent; when payable; observations - Rednal and Shelvock. Docketed: "Rental Woodhouse in Mr Roberts's time 1788 or 1789 3890/3/2/22 c1789

 Rental Rednal half year's rent due Mich. 1792 3890/3/2/23 1792

 1792 Rednal Bytake - Rental up to Xmas 1792 3890/3/2/24 1792

 Rednal whole year's rental for bytakes continued from Xmas 1792 and whole year's bytake rental for Xmas 1792 3890/3/2/25 1792

 

Ken Richards
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 32 weeks ago
Joined: Sunday, 9-03-2014

Reference to Borderland newspapers on Welsh Newspapers Online suggests that "bye take" is something rented, and associated with farming - a field, or barn, perhaps.

The name appears on both sides of the border associated with land disputes brought before the courts during the 19th century.
 

Mike Jones
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 7-05-2012

I also saw a job advert from that time and area for a shepherd "required to live in byetake"

SFHS WebMaster
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, 20-02-2013

It may not be linked, but in Georgina Jackson's Shropshire Word Book, there is an entry for BYTACK, which is a farm taken by the tenant of a larger farm, to which it is, as it were, tacked on. The land only being wanted, the house and 'building' are let separately. e.g. " Theer'll be a bundation o' houses to be 'ad, for one 'afe o' the farms bin let bytack" "Tack, a lease, possession for a time".

No mention of BYETAKE

AlisonS
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 31 weeks ago
Joined: Friday, 22-08-2014

It is a field name ('Shropshire Field Names', HDG Foxall, publ Shrewsbury, 1980) - land taken in / tacked on.

Ron and Jan
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 42 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, 9-06-2014

Hi, and thank you all for taking the time to reply. Our apologies for not replying sooner but we needed to finish a few urgent jobs in the house over the past couple of days.

It seems clear that “The Bytake”, as Jan’s dad refers to often, is not as we had imagined. Looking through all your posts it is clear that it is leased property from the tenant farmer, which would fit in with a conversation Jan had with her dad yesterday, and he said, “The Bytake was attached to the farm”. We must point out that this is the first time he has mentioned this! But given his age and his sometimes poor long-term memory it is understandable.

 We have to try to sort out the unintended red herrings and sometimes it takes time. For example he remembers clearly going to the stables with his father and helped tacking up the horses, is tacking up the right term? Then his father would go out to work the fields and if he were not at school he would go with him.

Another snippet he mentioned is he walking across the fields with some of his siblings to go to school. Now we were under the impression from earlier conversations that he went to school in Sheinton, where the school he said, had only two rooms. There were two teachers, one for each room we imagine, he says their names were Miss Hughes and … ummm Miss Hughes, yes that’s right! They used to call them ‘Big Miss Hughes’ and ‘Little Miss Hughes’. It’s fair to point out that the ‘Hughes’ names were also mentioned by his recently deceased sister Joan (re the ‘Looking for any Information about RGD / Decca in Bridgnorth’ thread). This in itself raises the question of why was he walking across fields to get to school, which he says was “quiet a walk” when the school was in the village? This raises the question, was it Sheinton or, we think maybe Cressage where they went to school. Oh the joys of family history!

Regarding the number 40 in the address. Jan’s dad has only ever referred to the place he lived with his parents and siblings as “The Bytake”. However, we have a postcard, sent in 1933 from his older brother (14) Charlie (Thomas Charles) from West Kirby, which is addressed as mentioned in our first post except the postcard says "Shinton" we had put "Sheinton" as an assumption.

The plan now is to buy a couple of books, which may help jog Jan’s dads’ memory a little and also help us. We also intend to visit the area over the next few weeks and take a look around and have now added Belswardyne Hall to the list. Maybe taking a few photographs and showing them to him will help too. Prior to that we now have a few suggested links to look at (thanks to all) and a few updates to Jan’s family tree to do.

Thanks Alison, John, Michael, Mike, Ken and the Webmaster for all your replies, information and help. Now … who has the headache tablets??

Ron & Jan