Coroner's Inquest Records

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JMCaldron
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Recently found a parish burial record for George ASHLEY, buried in Prees Heath, July 25 1848.  2 questions:  1.  There's a note on the record saying "buried by coroner's inquest" and then a handwritten notation "B3" next to who conducted the service.  Any clues what "B3" means?  And 2.  Anyone know where I could find the coroner's report or any clue on how he died (newspapers link??)?  Thanks for shedding any light.

Michael J Hulme
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Hello Joy

My first thought is that the notation 'B3' is some sort of reference to the position of the grave.  It has obviously been written with considerable care by someone who considered the information to be important.  You need someone with 'Code Breaking' skills to look at the original burial register pages on Find my Past to try to work out what it means.  Unusually the graves around Prees Church are arranged in pretty straight rows so some sort of numbering system may have been in use.

Looking at the flyleaf at the front of the register you will find the following:-
"The numbers of the graves in the new burial ground run thus -
The letters begin with A at the west end of the north wall and the numbers begin with 1 at the south end of the west wall."

Interestingly I would suggest that the letter A in the above paragraph was probably written by the same person who wrote the letter B in in George ASHLEY's entry.  You can view the churchyard at Prees on Google Earth. The church is on the east side of the village and to the east of the main A49 road which runs north-south between the village and the church.

With regard to finding information about the Inquest and the cause of death there are several points.  You can purchase a copy of the Death Certificate which will tell you the date and place of death and the cause of death.  We have an index to Shropshire Quarters Sessions records which include inquests but for some reason your George ASHLEY is not included.  The inquest is likely to have taken place within one or two days of death and he was buried on Tuesday 25th July 1848 so he may have died over the previous weekend.  I don't think there are any newspapers available online at the present time which might help you but you need the weekly paper published at the end of the week after he was buried, so possibly Friday 28th July 1848.

By the way, there is no known grave stone on George's grave.

Mike

JMCaldron
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Hi Mike,  This is all such a great help to me -- thank you!  Thank you for looking at the Quarter Sessions records.  I have noticed in some other records his name has been incorrectly written as ASTLEY.  Would you mind looking that name up for the same date too, please?  Thanks again.  Joy

 

Michael J Hulme
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Hello Joy

The Quarter Sessions don't list him under either spelling.

Just a thought - if he had been taken to hospital in Shrewsbury (the old Infirmary) and had died there then he probably wouldn't be listed.

Mike

JMCaldron
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Hi Mike  Good point -- hadn't thought about him possibly being at the hospital.  Do you know if any of their records still exist?  Trying to locate his death certificate but even that is proving difficult!  BTW, I located his gravesite whereabouts on Google.maps.  Do you know if the Shropshire Archives now hold all the cemetery plot info along with the parish records??  Thank for all your help -- absolutely invaluable, especially when I live the other side of the world.  -- Joy

 

 

Michael J Hulme
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Hello Joy

I see what you mean about the problem of trying to find a death certificate.  I have tried all the tricks I know and none of them have come up with anything.  I did see one death just outside Shropshire which made me wonder but it was earlier in the year.

Occasionally names have been missed off the central indexes and have been added later by writing them in by hand at the bottom and these can then get transcribed wrongly by the Internet sites so I have checked the original page images for ASHLEY / ASTLEY Sept quarter (which includes July) 1848 but there were no such added entries on the page.

I have looked at the newspapers on Find my Past and also the Welsh Newspapers Online (which include quite a lot of English references including Shropshire) but I couldn't see anything there.

As far as I can see your only option is to pay a researcher to look at the local newspapers at Shropshire Archives in the hope that the Inquest is reported - it should be.  If you can establish the place of death as distinct from the place of burial (Prees) then you could try to obtain a death certificate from the Local Superintendent Registrar.  There have always been a few entries which have got missed from the national indexes which are the ones which are available online.

Mike

JMCaldron
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Mike -- thanks for looking into this.  Where did he go??!!!!!  I'm currently on hols for a few but will do some more digging when I'm back home.  He lived with his wife and children in the little hamlet of Waterloo -- that much I know.  Any other ideas on where records for such a place may have been kept??  Many thanks Mike.  -- Joy 

PhilPoole
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Joy,

This may be a long shot, but do you know where his wife and children were living in the 1851 Census? This could give a clue as to whether he was living in Shropshire when he died 4 years earlier..

I recently came across an ancestor of mine who died in Withington Hospital, Manchester, with the hospital death recorded stating she was to be buried  in her home village of Clun, Shropshire. It's a long story how I fortuitously traced her death, but a reminder that everything is not always as it seems.

Phil

JMCaldron
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Hello Phil  Yes, his wife and children went to live with her father in Cruckmore/Cruckmoor, Parish of Prees.  Not far away from where they were living when George was alive.  I know that he was a boatman so have started looking into canals and where they led in hopes that might lead me to his death place.  I have a LOT of trial-and-error searching to do!!  Any suggestions??  Thx Phil!  --Joy

JMCaldron
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Phil -- I would LOVE to hear your story of how you found your ancestor's death record.  If you're willing to share you can email me off line....let me know.  Joy

PhilPoole
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Joy,

It sounds like an interesting possibility that if he was a boatman and died whilst working (either accident or natural death) that his body may have been transported back to Prees. But given the number of canals that linked up with the Shropshire Union Canal means you've got along list of Counties to look at.

I did find one interesting death record in Wrexham, but it was 2Q, and based on FindMyPast records that George ASTLEY was buried in Brymbo.

I'll try to precis the long story in separate message later.

Phil

PhilPoole
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Joy,

Cut down story, hope it makes sense!

I was researching sub-branches of my 2xGreatGrandmother to cross-validate some of my findings, including Lilly GOUGH born in Clun in 1881.  By 1911 Lilly (spelt different ways throughout her life) was not living with her family in Clun, but eventually I found her working as a servant in Merionethshire. But no obvious marriage or death record thereafter. Then I found Lilly on a family tree on Ancestry website, and contacted the tree owner, who lives in Canada. His wife is a direct relative of Lilly and therefore a distant cousin of mine. He was having the same problem with Lilly, but he did have death certificate of Lilly's mother, who died in 1932 in Manchester with informant of her death being L. EDWARDS, daughter. Lilly had no siblings with initial of L, so could informant be her and why Manchester?

Another trawl through databases for marriage of L GOUGH and Edwards, revealed a Montgomeryshire 1911 record just after the Census. Fortunately bingo, as FindMyPast had an image of the marriage certificate which confirmed it as Llllie and her father's name and her spouse as John EDWARDS. But this did not explain the Manchester connection. As 1911 is last available Census I took a gamble and searched on births with surname EDWARDS and mother's maiden surname of GOUGH, which are available post-1911. There was one child born 1912 in same district of Manchester as where Lilly's mother died.

So another gamble searching for deaths of Lilly / Lillie EDWARDS in Lancashire after her mother's death; Lancashire rather than Manchester in case she had moved after 1932. There was a  1940 record for Lillie Edwards born 1881. Then FindMyPast (FMP)  had a new dataset appear labeled "Withington Workhouse Death Register", which as an aside is I think for the major hospital at Withington, not just Workhouse. Opening up the image on FMP gave me her name, age, cause of death and the coup-de-grace of her place of burial as Clun, Shropshire!!

This has since led me to finding her Memorial Inscription at St. Georges Church, Clun (SFHS publication) and also that of her husband John EDWARDS! Records I would not have even guessed at  without fortuitously finding a new "cousin" in Canada and without trying to determine who the informant of her mother's death.

Why Manchester? I guess her mother was visiting her at time of death, as rest of the family were still back in or around Clun.

Regards

Phil

JMCaldron
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Phil -- this is fantastic to read, not only for the subject matter and final result, but also for the researching tips and methodological insights.  Sometimes I become overwhelmed and/or frustrated on a trail when there are so many online databases to search I don't know which one to start with or I forget to search some, or, due to living 5000 miles away, can't access the very records I want to look at!  Having case studies to use as structure help enormously.  So again, thanks for sharing!  Joy

JMCaldron
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Mike & Phil -- just wanted to let you know that through the help of the Cheshire Record Office I have found out what happened to George ASHLEY.  Still have no death record or coroner's inquest records but do have a newspaper article reporting the trial for manslaughter of ASHLEY.  Finally, some headway!  Joy

 

 

Michael J Hulme
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Hello Joy

If George ASHLEY was tried for manslaughter, when and where was that and what was the verdict?

If he was found guilty what was the sentence?  If he was sentenced to imprisonment is there a chance that he died in prison somewhere?  I don't know how much the prisoners were moved from one prison to another in those days.

Mike

JMCaldron
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Hi Mike, According to the Eddowes's Journal & General Advertiser for Shropshire & the Principality of Wales, Aug 2, 1848, there was fight between George ASHLEY & John WATKIN.  George died as a result and WATKIN was tried and found guilty of manslaughter.  Sentence was 1 month imprisonment.  So far I have not been able to find any record of the imprisonment but that's rabbit trailing anyway -- intrigue more than anything else.  The other interesting point mentioned in the article is that this fight wasn't just a drunken brawl but more of a boxing(?) fight with several rounds.  A previous fight was mentioned with a name I know is strongly connected to the Morrey family through adoption a couple of generations later.  Now I'd like to find George ASHLEY's actual death record.  It has to be out there somewhere... .

 

Michael J Hulme
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Hello Joy

Does the newspaper say where the fight took place and give any indication of date (how long before the trial)?

Mike

Peter John
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The newspaper article that Joy is referring to can be found in Genes Reunited. As I do not have a subscription for the GR newspaper archive I have not read the whole item. However, the associated "taster" information seems to indicate that George was killed on 4th July and that the incident may have occurred (or possibly have originated) at the Hawkstone Inn (presumably the one near Weston?). Where his death record is remains a mystery - as there is none related to the above date in Shropshire.

Peter

PhilPoole
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The newspaper article can also be found on Findmypast website. The fight took place on July 24th in a meadow about 1/2 mile from The Hawkstone inn. The article gives names of several witnesses including a surgeon (Mr Wood of Prees) who was called to see the deceased.

Mike, can you send me Joy's email address so that I can send her a copy of the article from FMP.

PHil

 

Michael J Hulme
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Hello Joy

I have sent your email address to Phil so you should shortly receive a copy of the newspaper article about the trial.

It seems that the Hawkstone Inn was the forerunner of the Hawkstone Park Hotel which still stands today.  If you do a search on Hawkstone Inn there are a few references about the history.  Use Edit --> Find (or Ctrl-F) to easily search for the word Inn on web pages.

Hawkstone was in the parish of Weston under Redcastle in the Wem Civil Registration District so the death should have been registered in Wem but copy certificates can now only be obtained from a central office in Shropshire.

I have emailed the office to ask if they can provide a reference number that I can send to you so you can order a copy of the death certificate.  I will let you know what the reply is in a few days.

Mike

Peter John
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This is really all quite intriguing!

Whilst the newspaper article gives the date of death as 24th July, the burial took place on 25th July - and that seemingly after a "coroner's inquest". How likely is that combination of dates?

However, with regard to the specific mention of a "coroner's inquest" in the burial record, I am prompted by past experience to offer the following theory as to why there is no record of George's death being formally registered (certainly at least not in quarter 3 of 1848). In doing so I am mindful of the fact that things may have been done differently 167 years ago.

When an inquest is opened, the next of kin will not be able to formally register the death until after the investigation into the death has been completed or the inquest hearing has been held.

In view of this, when the date & fact of death are known [and usually to enable the body to be promptly released (from the Coroner's custody) for burial] the Coroner will issue an interim death certificate. This looks and functions just like a normal death certificate, except that the cause of death is not confirmed.

I suspect that it is such an interim document that the Parish Clerk was alluding to when he made the exceptional entry in the burial record.

Could it perhaps be that George's widow Mary understood the interim certificate to mean that his death had already been formally registered? Might it be that she took no further action after the inquest had been completed?

If this were the case would Mary have realised that she still needed to formally register George's death and, more significantly, who would have been aware or concerned if she had not done so?

Peter

JMCaldron
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Peter -- I just sent an email to Phil & Mike telling them that I need to put the search for this elusive death record on the back burner BUT, after reading your thoughts and theory, I just can't leave it alone!!!  Thank you for the insight and suggestions.  I'm off to dig a little more... Will let you know what I find out!  Joy

 

JMCaldron
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THank you for doing that Mike. 

 

JMCaldron
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Perhaps contacting the church directly might shed light on addition documents?  I'd at least like to know if they can locate ASHLEY's burial site, even though it is unmarked.  The only way to contact the church is by phone or snail mail.  Anyone have any other suggestions, please?  Thank yous! -- Joy

 

Michael J Hulme
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Hello Joy

I am afraid the search for a possible death certificate for George ASHLEY in July 1848 has failed to find a possible entry.  The registrar's office looked in their indexes but could not find his name so they then did a search in the actual death register just in case he had been missed out of the indexes but again there was no trace so it seems that for whatever reason his death was never actually registered back in 1848.  I think Peter's suggestion above that there might have been some confusion probably offers the best explanation.

I would just like to expand on Peter's other comment about the date of death (24th July) and the date of burial (25 July 1848) being so close and the Coroner's Inquest having taken place between the death and burial.  I had a relative who died in the morning in 1877. A post mortem was carried out and the inquest was held the same afternoon.  Another relative died in 1910 and the inquest was held the next day and he was buried two days later.  Whilst in George ASHLEY's case there might have been slight differences in procedure because there was a criminal trial of his assailant things will have been dealt with much quicker than we are used to today.

Joy, with regard to writing to the church to try to locate George's burial location, I think you are very unlikely to discover anything more.  The problem is that churches didn't tend to keep detailed records beyond the actual burial register until quite modern times unless you are very lucky.  In the case of Prees the monumental inscriptions (MIs) were recorded in 1985/6 and I know the gentleman who did them (now deceased) made contact with the vicar at the time so if there had been any surviving plan or anything else of help the details will have been included in the transcript.  The only reference he gives concerns the New Churchyard which came into use after WWII where the transcript states that, "The numbers used for graves in the New Churchyard are the same as those used in the Burial Register".

I think you have probably reached the end of the road with this.

Mike

JMCaldron
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Hello Mike,  Thank you for trying to find the death record for George ASHLEY and for all your other input and insight.  I agree with your statement that it does appear to be the end of the road for tracing this ancestor.  The good thing is is that I did find way more info out about him that I had bargained for!!!  Anyhow, time to move on to other family members.  Thanks again!  --Joy